<p>Exactly, MisterK. The collateral damage has been held to a minimum at this point. I believe that was a good (and intentional) decision on the NCAA’s part.</p>
<p>It’s a big deal because people come from miles around, generations of people, businesses etc. for football weekends at the big football leagues and Notre Dame. My sib travels from LA to Ann Arbor once every year for a Michigan football game and has for over 30 years and the Big House holds alot of people who come, stay in town, spend money, eat out… it easily surpasses the amount of students at the game (who might not care about football, have to study, want to sleep in). I went to a college where no one went to the football games and there were not even cheerleaders or a marching band but even I can understand big university football (or basketball for the basketball schools) from the economic perspective. I would guess with some of these programs they draw more people and more bucks per person than the pro teams in the region. There’s plenty of posts on these threads citing case studies where a college team won a national championship and the applications soared for several years which enables admissions to pick higher caliber students. You can ‘dream’ about a Penn State with a foundation of no football and a pure intellectual reputation but would not have happened in our lifetimes.</p>
<p>And I too, think it was an intentioned decision.</p>
<p>I think I would have rather PSU be hit with a huge financial penalty (perhaps even larger than it was given…maybe 100M…$10M over 10 years or maybe 5% of gross for 10 years…or something like that. Something painful enough that PSU would be “hurt”…and painful enough that other schools’ would be scared. </p>
<p>This may not be the death penalty, but it’s like torturing someone just short of death. </p>
<p>PSU might as well completely cancel all sports (then NCAA wouldn’t have any power over them at all). then in 5 years, rejoin. </p>
<p>I don’t see how PSU will be able to pay the fines - considering its money-making football team will be decimated - while also not cutting ANY scholarships for the other teams (which football essentially pays for).</p>
<p>Last year, PSU netted about $30M from its football team…that’s AFTER paying all other sports’ scholarships, all sports’ coaches’ salaries, all sports’ facilities, all sports’ uniforms, all sports’ travel, etc. </p>
<p>As things stand, the football team may be able to support itself, but it’s not likely going to be able to support all the other teams…while also paying the annual penalty (was the minimum payment $15M per year??)</p>
<p>When penalties get so big as to completely cripple a univ, which these likely will, I think that it only causes “deep pocket entities” to find further ways to cover things up…because the penalties are too big. </p>
<p>If the NCAA wants to make sure that pedophiles, and such, don’t go unreported, then insist that there be some WOMEN in these male-dominated programs. WOMEN would not have allowed this to go on. WOMEN would not have “looked the other way.” Men are notorious for “not ratting out” other men’s sexual misbehaviors. Maybe it’s because too many men have their own sexual indiscretions (even if they’re legal ones) that they don’t want others (wives, etc) learning about…so, they “shut up” about what they see/know is going on around them. </p>
<p>Not this case, but there have been cases when schools have “self-reported” once an infraction comes to light, yet the NCAA still slaps a huge penalty. That’s just stupid. (and I realize that the PSU issue wasn’t just a “boo boo infraction”…obviously. ) </p>
<p>As an aside…I wonder what the penalties would have been if the sport had involved - say - the coaches of the swim team? What if some swim coach had been found guilty of pedophilia and some other coaches/staff/admins had covered it up/not reported/etc. Do you think the penalties/fines would have been the same?</p>
<p>Wow. I had no idea there was that much money per game. </p>
<p>Just one point about the janitors/McQueary vs. the higher-ups, IMO there is one big difference here. Yes, they ALL should have reported it to the police. But the janitors/McQueary admitted what they saw, admitted they did nothing. The others continued to cover it up.</p>
<p>Mom2, there’s a link a couple pages back where the college surmised they would cut back on university operations and perhaps take out loans to fund the fines. Love it and I’m saying that in the absolutely most sarcastic way…who does that hurt…the infrastructure of the college. Moody’s is thinking of dropping their rating. Someone else posted that within the sanctions it said they couldn’t get money from other sports up and until a certain point which is humorous since football funded the other sports not the other way around, but the pie in the sky realities of “writing the sanctions” still need to play out financially in the real world. Penn State has a pretty good endowment so they might be able to patch it all together for the next 4-5 years but without actually seeing the financials I’m hard pressed to believe that this won’t touch all aspects of the college operating budget. The UCs are trying to purge $10 million from their budgets right now and we all know what’s happening in California…food for thought. Add to that corporate sponsors are leaving and season ticket sales are falling. The money has to come from somewhere…</p>
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<p>We’re not talking about defending Sandusky - the courts mete out his justice. The issue at hand is how those in power at the school are doing everything they can to protect those like Paterno. Same applies to the community and students - don’t see much disgust or anger at the enablers. </p>
<p>If they had broken down his statue and ripped out his name off the library, as soon as his actions became clear, I would have some sympathy. As long as they grudgingly yield as little as they can, they deserve what they’re getting. The money is better spent in a different community where the people value the children more than their program.</p>
<p>Imagine if the Germans grudgingly took down Hitler’s statue a month after it was established what he did, but insisted in keeping his name elsewhere because he, after all, did a great job building bridges and highways. This looks like a deeply scaled down version of the same, and unless all the enablers were roughly shown the door, I don’t see any real contrition.</p>
<p>“You cover up, you get nailed” is a good statement.</p>
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<p>The problem with the “big fine” approach in isolation is that it would not address the underlying problems in any serious way. The NCAA expressly stated their intention to reform the dysfunctional culture at this failed institution. That’s the root of the problem.</p>
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<p>The fines, the loss of scholarships and bowls, the compliance monitoring, the agreement to implement the Freeh recommendations - these are all components of a well-thought out attempt to apply the necessary tough love to an out-of-control program without causing undue harm to other interested parties. </p>
<p>A big fine would allow things to go on as normal, which would be unacceptable to society. Look at these (and other forums), read the papers, listen to the news - it’s pretty clear that it’s time for a major intervention. There are a lot of people out there who don’t seem to understand the full scope of the problem, and how their blind support enables - and even guarantees - such behavior.</p>
<p>FWIW, USoCal & many other states have had to weather harsh financial AND post season penalties without as much belly-aching as is being raised for PSU. In their scandals, there weren’t all these poor children who were preyed upon with the tacit approval & backing of the administration.</p>
<p>This morning on CBS, Emmert said that the NCAA thought that the death penalty was “too blunt an instrument.”</p>
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from ESPN in 2010</p>
<p>but i’m not seeing additional fines. Were there additional fines imposed above and beyond the scholarship loses and post season play? Also were there Pac 10 fines associated with this? The NCAA sanctions for Penn State were unprecedented for impacting the students who were not involved, for impacting the university in a very real economic way outside of football revenues and the Big 10 added a $13 million dollar loss to the coffers. I’m not saying they had no right to impose sanctions but I’m not sure there is any comparison to anything that has come before and for such a long time.</p>
<p>"Is it usually? For a few, yes - there are always fanatics. For most, no - football is something fun to do on the weekends, not the centerpoint of their lives.</p>
<p>Personally, in 24 years in State College, I attended two games. The first (1994?) I was selling sodas in the stands to benefit a charity. The second was a scrimmage (free entry) and I knew one of the players. I catch 2-3 games a year on TV. I’m not a huge college football fan, much less a PSU fan. So why am I defending the team? Because that is where the school is being attacked. Does that mean I am defending Sandusky, child abuse, or the cover up? Absolutely not."</p>
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<p>CosmicFish – Me too! I know what Penn State was and still is to me though. It was my college where I spent wonderful years, graduated 30 years ago, met my husband…my daughter earned her degree there and was immediately employed in a good job. Many family members, co-workers and friends are also Penn State alumni. Heck, it’s unlikely to live in PA and not know a Penn State Engineer, alumni, a graduate of the medical or law school. I don’t want any sympathy nor do I expect to be insulted because of my connection to the world class university where I earned my BA and MS. My father was a professor at a nearby (not in State College) branch campus. I have wonderful memories of college living years in the town of State College I suspect many others also have fond memories of their college years.</p>
<p>It’s amazing to me how passionate people are about their love and hatred of Penn State. There are absolutely Penn State haters out there and to those on this blog who suggest that there are no Penn State haters on this posting board…you’re kidding, really? </p>
<p>I understand passionate opinions. I also have passionate opinions and I remember the day in 2003 when we went to war and I was in absolute disbelief. I was disgusted at the decision makers and those in power. I couldn’t believe that that there was so much acceptance of the decision and shocked that there was not complete outrage at our government. I understand the outrage at Sandusky, the Penn State leaders and Paterno…completely. </p>
<p>Now for football…never went to a game as a student and went to one in Beaver Stadium as an adult. I have no passion for football nor for any sports. Do I support the fines and the NCAA decisions. I know as little about the NCAA as I do about football. If these measures help the victims and will help stop the MONSTERS then absolutely. I also think it would be appropriate for the BOT to completely step down. As for the upcoming season – I won’t be watching but I have no problem with a full stadium of football fans and students supporting their teams. Clearly Penn State was not and is not about football for me. </p>
<p>Oh and in addition to being a Penn State alumni I was also raised Catholic and I am white and a US citizen I feel no personal responsibility for child abuse, slavery or the war. Lots of sadness…just no personal responsibility. </p>
<p>So now I’m off to finish the dishes then to walk the dogs…no time for robot like Paterno worship or Penn State chants tonight! Some of the postings that are written here about the Penn State culture and community at large are very insulting and are absolutely ridiculous. No Penn State haters here…really?</p>
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Are you asking what I think the sanctions should have been? The best I can tell you is what I think of the actual sanctions:</p>
<p>I think the fine is appropriate - under the circumstances, a massive financial donation to child abuse charities seems reasonable.</p>
<p>I think the rest is excessive. Why? Because the part of this cover-up that was apparently related to and benefitted the football program was comparatively small. This was a failure of a few figures very high up in the administration, involving a figure who was already retired at the time of the cover-up. The only real benefit to the team from the cover-up was the small impact that Sandusky, a retired coach, had on recruiting - the abuse alone would have likely had relatively little effect. So I would have done the following:</p>
<p>Bowl Ban: I would have made it 2-3 years, and specifically exempted any bowl game related to conference and national championships - on the off chance that the team performed so well as to merit such a trip, it is excessive then to deny them the chance, and only serves to muddle the accomplishments of the official champions (the entire REASON for such games in the first place!). Regardless, income from championship games would go to charity as well. </p>
<p>Recruiting: I would have capped at a lower number, not sure exactly what, but as I mentioned the overall scale of the punishment seems excessive for a scandal that is largely criminal and only slightly related to the actual team.</p>
<p>Vacation of wins: Scandalous, in my opinion. If the NCAA feels that Paterno should not receive credit, then strip HIM of head coaching credit for games from 2001* on and give him credit for 298 wins (or whatever it is). Vacating a decade-plus of wins across the board is an insult to every player during that period.</p>
<p>*: 1998 makes no sense as a start of the penalty, as there was no real cover-up in 1998. That incident was investigated by police, reported to the DA, and there was a decision that it did not rise to the level where it should be prosecuted, nor have I seen any dispute of that investigation. So 2001, when victim 2’s assault was concealed, should be the start of the penalty.</p>
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And the guilty are being punished in criminal and civil courts, which is also where the victims are being addressed. The NCAA sanctions do not one thing to the principal guilty parties, they punish only those people who “supported the culture” by having jobs and being fans in the same way that people have jobs and are fans at every school.</p>
<p>^^I agree with that with one exception…I’m on the fence about the fines. I’m not convinced given the terms that the college can pay those fines without dipping into institutional money which will come from all. Maybe, maybe not. We’ll probably never know unless they cut off institutional grants, or close a dorm or shut down a department. I really hope that doesn’t happen. I presume some sports will go. They most likely have civil litigation ahead of them which hopefully insurance will cover. If not and they still come up short, it might be worth the legal costs to challenge the NCAA on the punitive fines.</p>
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To me, the amount of the fines and the ability of the school/team to pay them is something that the administration should have already calculated prior to accepting them, and I can only assume that they already did those calculations and have determined that it is managable. I could be wrong, of course… I have little reason right now to trust or respect the administration of this university in doing what is best for the school!</p>
<p>I agree as that is what would typically occur at a business in crisis, but I’m wondering if they had enough time to do a good job crunching the number…one would think they did. If they were smart they started crunching those numbers the day the report came out or at whatever point they sensed this was going to blow up. I have to “believe” they did have enough time but I know the NCAA was pressuring them also.</p>
<p>“There are absolutely Penn State haters out there and to those on this blog who suggest that there are no Penn State haters on this posting board…you’re kidding, really?”</p>
<p>I, for one, have no hatred of PSU. I knew very little about the school prior to this incident. However, I have no fondness for Paterno, Spanier, Schultz and Curley, the culture that existed and their defenders. And I suspect there are many others on this thread with a similar position.</p>
<p>The university is likely to still face fines from the Department of Education. They expect those to be record amounts as well…</p>
<p>I had no particular feelings about Penn State before knowledge of the Professor Emeritus, and the provisions university officials and football folks seemed to make for him in money, opportunity, location, reputation, position, and coverup.</p>
<p>Now, every time students and faculty go in and out of the JoePa Library they can be reminded of their institution’s “academic integrity”.</p>
<p>Cosmic fish. Thank you for posting. You have managed to state what I have been feeling and trying to get across for many many posts in this thread. Thank you for adding the additional facts about the financial impact on state college.</p>
<p>Thank you to all the other posters who continue to try and add a balanced voice about what Penn State is really like.</p>