Penn v Stanford

[ohgosh]

<p>So this is a question of fit.
I’ve been accepted both to the Management and Technology program at Penn and to Stanford. Both schools are great, of course, but I’m not really sure how to go about choosing.
On the one hand, Penn is the better personal fit and I’m much more excited about Philadelphia and its proximity to New York and DC than I am about Palo Alto and an hour-long train ride to San Francisco. On the other hand, Stanford’s Management Science and Engineering major seems like it may also be the kind of background in both engineering and business that I desire, and Stanford seems to have more well-reputed engineering and linguistics programs, with more resources available (Linguistics is a secondary interest of mine, but I like the idea of having options for exploring that interest, wherever it may take me.).
So … my questions are:

1. Considering that I actually intend to work more on the actual engineering side of things after graduation, would the MS&E program or the M&T program be more suitable for my goals?
2. Do you think I’d be doing myself a disservice to sacrifice a somewhat better personal fit (I still believe I could be content at Stanford; I just don’t feel the same way about it as I do about Penn.) for a better academic fit?</p>

[SISTOKID]

<p>You can’t make a wrong decision. Is there a cost difference?</p>

[ohgosh]

<p>only a minor one</p>

[SISTOKID]

<p>Personally I would go to Stanford and honestly I suspect most would, BUT look if you felt really good about Penn when you visited then by all means go to Penn. If it was Penn State and the financial package was the same than I would press harder for Stanford, but UPENN is incredible and in this case you have the luxury to really make a decision with your heart/feel. (I say a luxury b/c some kids might not have that option they might have to take the better offer or the school is too good to pass up even though their heart might not be in it) </p>

<p>One last thing, I have friends who have gone to both and loved both, but honestly there seems to be a little more “love” from the Penn folks, - there seems to be something about that place. That is totally anecdotal and unscientific, but my Penn friends LOVE, like LOVE Penn. My Stanford friends love Stanford, with a few more “buts” attached. </p>

<p>Good luck and congratulations!</p>

[monstor344]

<p>If you are positive that you’re looking for both engineering and business, I can’t see how you would turn down M&T for any other school/program in the nation, cost aside.</p>

[Kcombs]

<p>Both are great schools that will give amazing educations. Its not about the name on the paper but what you get out of it. Stanford may be a bit better in the area you want, but I wouldn’t sacrifice the feeling of fit that you get from Penn, especially since its such a good school as well.</p>

[ellopoppet]

<p>Penn has a great linguistics program as well. Are there any cost differences for you?</p>

<p>Philly is an awesome city, and Penn is an amazing school. I’ve only heard great things about it from friends that go there. If you like Penn better, go to Penn.</p>

[confidentialcoll]

<p>I’m not sure you understand what the M&T program at penn is… It’s pretty much the most selective program anywhere, with ridiculous alumni achievements and placement on wall street (nothing else, not even harvard or wharton normal compares). The MS&E program at Stanford is an offshoot of operations research / financial engineering which is comparable to the operations research major at Columbia or the Operations Research Financial Engineering major at Princeton. I think MS&E is not even a well respected major at Stanford. You’re comparing a non-strength major at Stanford to Penn’s most elite program. For a program that takes ~50 odd freshman each year and only started 3 decades ago, take a look at their alums:</p>

<p>[Jerome</a> Fisher Program in Management and Technology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerome_Fisher_Program_in_Management_and_Technology]Jerome”>University of Pennsylvania - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>If you’re interested in engineering and business, this is a no-brainer. The only time you should turn this down is if you don’t want to do engineering or business anymore and get into Harvard. Or if you absolutely hate penn and love a peer school.</p>

[phantasmagoric]

<p>To answer your questions, I don’t think either would confer an advantage. Stanford MS&E is ranked #1, but M&T is also an excellent program. Have you visited Stanford yet? I think you should wait to judge how you ‘feel’ about it until you’ve gone to Admit Weekend.</p>

<p>I can also speak to Stanford’s strength in linguistics. Yes, Penn’s program is also a top program, but Stanford’s is easily top-5, sometimes top 2 or 3 (whereas Penn’s has been slipping–Chomsky has been gone for a very long time, other renowned faculty like Joshi have retired, etc.). I’d say that Stanford’s also the better option if you’re unsure of what you’d like to do exactly–you’ll have the security of knowing that no matter what program you end up in, it’s one of the top programs in the world for it, and you’ll have the opportunity to do almost any kind of interdisciplinary work you want (either self-designed or though an established program). If you’re interested in the overlap between linguistics and engineering/technology at Stanford, let me know–that’s an area I know a lot about.</p>

<p>

I think MS&E is not even a well respected major at Stanford. You’re comparing a non-strength major at Stanford to Penn’s most elite program.

</p>

<p>MS&E is a well-respected major at Stanford. It is one of Stanford’s strengths–but Stanford has so many areas in which it’s one of the best, it’s not that big a deal. (The same can’t be said of Penn, so perhaps that’s why you think M&T is a much bigger deal.)</p>

<p>If the OP is strong enough to get into the M&T program, he/she is strong enough to do just as well at Stanford. I’d also argue that Stanford’s proximity to Silicon Valley and the Bay Area in general give it a big advantage here; Stanford has tons of programs integrating technology/research/industry with entrepreneurship, etc. I think programs like Penn’s M&T are supposed to be competing for students where they were often lost before–like to Stanford and MIT.</p>

[travelbug]

<p>^^ It’s kind of heartening to see a pro-Penn post from an alum of a different school :)</p>

<p>Anyway, CCers arguing against Penn usually mention the “preprofessional” atmosphere, so I’m going to go ahead and head that off before it comes up. Penn is perhaps the most pre-professional of the Ivies, excluding Cornell, but its administration nonetheless embraces learning for the sake of learning. Wharton’s mantra, for example, is “business and more,” and even a single-degree Wharton student is required to take 40% of his classes outside of Wharton. In short, you aren’t sacrificing a liberal arts education by choosing Penn. Rather, by choosing M&T, you’re gaining a business education while maintaining access to engineering and liberal arts resources.</p>

<p>This clip on Wharton’s undergraduate homepage talks about the “business and more” approach from the perspective of current students, including one who is in M&T:</p>

<p>[The</a> Wharton Undergraduate Program | The Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania](<a href=“http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/undergrad/]The”>Wharton Undergrad at the University of Pennsylvania)</p>

<p>I recommend clicking through the other short videos there, as well; they offer some good insight into what life is like as an undergrad pursuing a business degree.</p>

<p>Also, M&T is a small program with specific resources and advisors that cater directly to its students. M&Ters are among the most-recruited students at Penn and Wharton, but I think that the personal attention provided to an M&T student would also serve you well in the future if you were to, say, pursue an advanced engineering degree rather than work on Wall Street. Connections and recommendations seem practically guaranteed to students in Penn’s dual-degree programs, so you could choose the intellectual or purely-engineering route later on if you really wanted to.</p>

<p>As far as Stanford goes, there is no denying that you would get a good education there and be well-connected upon graduation, as well. I think both schools’ names hold their own in terms of prestige. The M&T program is certainly looked well upon in the business world. </p>

<p>I hope I’m not overstepping; it isn’t my intention to pressure you to come to Penn! </p>

<p>Congratulations on your options! You can’t make a bad choice, but I really hope that you’ll choose to become a Quaker. Best of luck!</p>

[travelbug]

<p>@ phantasmagoric- There’s really no need to denigrate Penn or its programs. Positive posts are just as helpful to the OP. And your assertion that</p>

<p>

Stanford’s proximity to Silicon Valley and the Bay Area in general give it a big advantage here; Stanford has tons of programs integrating technology/research/industry with entrepreneurship, etc.

</p>

<p>is incorrect. M&Ters practically have opportunities in research and multidisciplinary study thrown at their feet, and Penn is close enough to New York (a mecca of many industries, including, though maybe to a slightly lesser degree, the ones Silicon Valley is known for) to ensure just as many job opportunities will be available to the OP upon graduation from M&T as upon graduation from Stanford.</p>

<p>Also, you say</p>

<p>

I think programs like Penn’s M&T are supposed to be competing for students where they were often lost before–like to Stanford and MIT.

</p>

<p>That is true, and because Penn/Wharton wants those students just as badly as Stanford and MIT do, M&Ters will find the same- if not better- opportunities at Penn as at the its rivals. If Penn wants the returns, it has to make the investment, right? And the institution certainly invests in and looks highly upon its M&T kids.</p>

[CJaneRead]

<p>Which coast do you see yourself on ultimately? Penn, although a great school, does not have anywhere close to the name recognition that Stanford has on the West Coast. Not saying that should be a major consideration, but that does matter to some.</p>

[powerbomb]

<p>

I think programs like Penn’s M&T are supposed to be competing for students where they were often lost before–like to Stanford and MIT.

</p>

<p>I’d disagree. I think Wharton alone is enough to compete with HYPSM. For someone like the OP, who has a clear interest in engineering and business, M&T is the perfect program.</p>

[travelbug]

<p>^ I’ll agree with that. I thought phantasmagoric was comparing Penn SEAS (not Wharton) to the engineering opportunities at Stanford and MIT, which is why I posted what I did.</p>

[confidentialcoll]

<p>Your desirability coming out of the M&T program will be unparalleled. Not only do you have a business degree from the best undergrad b-school in the world, but you combine in with a rigorous engineering degree. You will graduate with a BS from Wharton and a BSE from Penn SEAS. Penn SEAS might not be ranked highly, but it’s students are top notch:</p>

<p>[University</a> of Pennsylvania - 2010](<a href=“http://profiles.asee.org/profiles/4837/screen/19?school_name=University+of+Pennsylvania]University”>http://profiles.asee.org/profiles/4837/screen/19?school_name=University+of+Pennsylvania)</p>

<p>M&T alums get jobs at top consulting firms, elite hedge funds, trading firms, investment banks - basically wherever they have an interest in. They’ve also founded financial and tech companies. I work on wall street and I can attest that M&T candidates are sought after. Even those towards the bottom of the M&T class (I’ve known a couple of people here) graduate with jobs that top candidates from other ivy league schools matriculate into. If you hate Penn and you love Stanford, go for it, not trying to take away that Stanford is a special place.</p>

[phantasmagoric]

<p>

There’s really no need to denigrate Penn or its programs. Positive posts are just as helpful to the OP. And your assertion that

</p>

<p>I’m not denigrating Penn or its progams–I’m just saying that it doesn’t have the edge here that you’d like to think. I even acknowledged that M&T is great, but I’m saying that Stanford’s MS&E program is just as good.</p>

<p>

M&Ters practically have opportunities in research and multidisciplinary study thrown at their feet, and Penn is close enough to New York (a mecca of many industries, including, though maybe to a slightly lesser degree, the ones Silicon Valley is known for) to ensure just as many job opportunities will be available to the OP upon graduation from M&T as upon graduation from Stanford.

</p>

<p>Of course Penn also has opportunities–I wasn’t denying that–but rather, I think that Stanford’s proximity to SV is a significant advantage. SV is where engineering and technology first learned to spin out. Entrepreneurship defines the area. The most well-known venture capital companies literally line the west face of Stanford’s campus.</p>

<p>Again, of course Wharton students are going to enjoy a plethora of opportunities, but I would say that SV gives Stanford an advantage that not even MIT can match.</p>

<p>

That is true, and because Penn/Wharton wants those students just as badly as Stanford and MIT do, M&Ters will find the same- if not better- opportunities at Penn as at the its rivals. If Penn wants the returns, it has to make the investment, right?

</p>

<p>That’s very possible. Here of course we can agree to disagree, since I think it’s more likely that Penn is still doing catch-up with Stanford in engineering/management. Obviously, Wharton is on par with GSB, but Stanford is still a step ahead in the overlap with engineering. Not just because Stanford engineering is much better, but because the overlap between business and engineering is very much something that’s defined Stanford for many decades now. (Silicon Valley is what boosted Stanford to prominence in this area and probably contributed a lot to its ranking in the top 2 for both engineering and business now.)</p>

<p>

I’d disagree. I think Wharton alone is enough to compete with HYPSM. For someone like the OP, who has a clear interest in engineering and business, M&T is the perfect program.

</p>

<p>I think that’s the overriding idea on CC–that Wharton is on par with HYPSM, and it is on par, in terms of selectivity, quality, etc. but I don’t think it’s true that it competes well in actual cross-admits. This just my hunch, but I’d be willing to bet a lot that Wharton still loses in cross-admit battles with HYPSM. I think that’s because students tend to be drawn more by overall prestige than prestige in specific areas (like business) or in specific circles (like academia).</p>

[travelbug]

<p>^ Ok, then. As you said, we can agree to disagree. My opinion is still that Penn’s proximity to Wall Street and New York City (not to mention Philadelphia), combined with Wharton’s international reputation make M&T just as good an option for a future engineer as Stanford would be. Yes, Stanford’s engineering programs are ranked higher than Penn’s, but a Stanford degree is also narrower in focus than a degree from M&T, and therefore is applicable to a slightly smaller sample of jobs.</p>

<p>Also, I’m not so sure that Wharton loses in as many cross-admit battles as you think it does. Rather, there is a significantly lower number of students accepted to Wharton each year than is accepted to each of HYPSM, and therefore it is less likely that a Wharton-HYPSM cross-admit would be on CC posting about his/her decision. And, of course, Wharton’s pool of applicants is more self-selective than that of HYPSM and as such, perhaps, there are fewer Wharton-HYPSM cross-admits than cross-admits to two or more HYPSM schools only. This makes it even more unlikely that a student admitted to both Wharton and one or more of HYPSM would be on CC, especially as I believe that of those schools, only MIT actually offers an undergrad business degree.</p>

[phantasmagoric]

<p>

with Wharton’s international reputation make M&T just as good an option for a future engineer as Stanford would be. Yes, Stanford’s engineering programs are ranked higher than Penn’s, but a Stanford degree is also narrower in focus than a degree from M&T

</p>

<p>I don’t get this–you compare M&T (a business/eng program) to Stanford engineering, saying they’re equally good options, but then go on to say that M&T is a better degree than Stanford engineering because the latter is more specific? You should compare M&T to the similar program at Stanford–management science and engineering (MS&E).</p>

<p>I agree that M&T is excellent and provides some of the best post-graduation opportunities. The point I’m making is that if you had to name one thing that has defined Stanford for the past 60 years, it’s business/engineering. It’s very much Stanford’s “specialty,” so even though M&T is amazing, the overlap between business and engineering will just never been one of those areas that Penn is equal to or better than Stanford in–because it’s Stanford’s “thing.” (That’s just my opinion.)</p>

<p>Also, my hunch on HYPSM cross-admits comes from my own anecdotal experience (from those who turned down Huntsman, etc. to go Stanford) and from what I’ve observed on CC–not just those who post that they’re turned down HYPSM for Wharton, but rather, the general perception on CC seems to be that HYPSM still win in cross-admits with Wharton because students in general (not just on this site) are obsessed with prestige. Of course, there’s no way of knowing (unless that data has been released), but I’m just clarifying where my perception has come from.</p>

[powerbomb]

<p>Phantasmagoric, if we’re talking about general public prestige (how did we even come to talk about prestige!?), then I would concede that Stanford takes the trophy over M&T. However, if we’re talking about prestige, networking and job opportunities in the business-engineering intersecting world, I think M&T wins. Sure, entrepreneurship and engineering may be embedded in Stanford’s culture and it may be their unspoken “thing,” but M&T is explicitly a program that focuses on those two areas and guarantees internships and mentors (not to mention that business has long been Wharton’s “thing,” perhaps more so than engineering has been that of Stanford’s).</p>

<p>Also, I’ve seen many many H vs Y or H vs P or Y vs S (you get the point) threads, but not very many W vs. HYPSM threads (definitely not enough to see any kind of a pattern), so I don’t know that I would make the deduction that W loses more of its cross-admits, based on CC threads no less. </p>

<p>As for Huntsman, that’s an even younger program than M&T and not as prestigious/desired. </p>

<p>In the end, I think Stanford’s MS&E and Penn’s M&T don’t really focus on the same things.</p>

<p>EDIT: I read the original post again and s/he says that this decision is a matter of fit (not prestige). I think the difference in job-prospects (in either business or engineering) is sooo minuscule that the OP should choose where s/he think s/he will enjoy 4 years of her life more.</p>

[phantasmagoric]

<p>

if we’re talking about general public prestige (how did we even come to talk about prestige!?

</p>

<p>I stated my observation that HYPSM still wins in cross-admits with Penn, in response to someone else’s comment. It was not meant to be a piece of my argument.</p>

<p>

However, if we’re talking about prestige, networking and job opportunities in the business-engineering intersecting world, I think M&T wins.

</p>

<p>I can almost guarantee that isn’t true. Not because Stanford is Stanford and therefore better than Penn, etc. no, not all–but because the overlap between business and engineering really has been Stanford’s “claim to fame” for decades now. Stanford currently has ties to over 3,000 companies in SV; more than 4,700 companies have been founded by Stanford people, and thousands more currently have Stanford alumni in them (many of them since their startup days). On top of that, Stanford offers its students tons of programs (like the Mayfield Fellows program, the Stanford Technology Ventures Program, etc.), connections with SV, a strong alumni network of some 200k people, and so on. In the business-engineering world, I don’t think it’s possible that M&T could be actually “better” in this regard. (And being affiliated with a top business school wouldn’t put it ahead of Stanford, whose b-school is currently ranked at the top in US News and other outlets as well).</p>

<p>Again, M&T is excellent, easily among the best, but there is at least one school which excels more in business/engineering; that would be Stanford, but there could be others. Though it’s probably not dangerous to say that M&T is second only to Stanford. But I honestly can’t see how M&T could be better than Stanford is business/engineering.</p>

<p>

not to mention that business has long been Wharton’s “thing,”

</p>

<p>Uh, of course business has been Wharton’s “thing”–it’s a business school! That’s very different from the business/engineering overlap being its “thing.”</p>

<p>The MS&E and M&T programs are very similar. If you look at the requirements, they also seem to have very similar objectives and philosophies.</p>