Penn vs Columbia

College Search & Lists
1

Hi all,

I am currently trying to decide between Penn or Columbia ED for next year. I am interested in studying economics and bioengineering. After college I am thinking of either getting an econ phd (focusing on health econ), going into healthcare banking/consulting or going to med school. (Hopefully once into college, I will soon get a better idea of which path I want).

I would like an environment that is rigorous and competitive but also fun (i.e. decent social life/campus life etc). Having access to research opportunities and also extracurricular activities/clubs related to my academic and career interests is also important.

Which of these two schools do you think is the best fit based on academic interests and potential post-college plans as well as my other non-academic preferences? Any info/insight/opinion would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

2

Hey there-

you should check out some of my older posts by looking through my profile. I compare Penn and Columbia a lot because I ended up choosing primarily between those two schools (and Yale) during the RD round back when I applied.

In a nutshell, i chose Penn over Columbia because I preferred Penn’s interdisciplinary and collaborative environment, its larger, more traditional campus feel, its superior access to the heart of the city in which it is located, and the unparalleled social life (which includes everything from parties at fraternity houses and clubs downtown to dinner in center city and a stroll through the Barnes Collection or a quiet night in with friends watching a movie).

Additionally, I believed at the time that Penn’s more personalized environment would lead to a better educational experience and friends who have gone to Columbia and articles from their student newspaper seem to indicate that I was right.

From Columbia’s paper:
“No academic departments in the Faculty of Arts and Sciences currently offer a personalized advising system that pairs undergraduate majors with faculty advisers who work with students throughout their junior and senior years.”
http://columbiaspectator.com/news/2016/02/04/lack-faculty-advising-limits-student-faculty-relationships-columbia-college-and

They also have a nearly impossible time encouraging full professors to teach Core Classes at Columbia and consequently you’re often stuck with some random graduate student who has maybe read one of the texts on your syllabus but is otherwise not really qualified to teach the class. In contrast, 95% of the classes in the College of Arts & Sciences at Penn are taught by full professors.
http://www.admissions.upenn.edu/images/uploads/docs/collegebrochure1617.pdf

Also as a side note, if you care about healthcare consulting/banking, Penn is probably the best school from which to enter those professions. With Wharton on campus, Penn is one of only 4 or 5 universities that attract all of the most prestigious banks and consulting firms in the world and all Penn students from Penn’s four undergraduate schools (the college, wharton, engineering, and nursing) have access to the same career services support and interviews. Thus, as a Penn student you have unmatched access to the best jobs in your field of interest no matter if you studied econ, history, political science, engineering or whatever else interests you. Additionally, because of the one university policy, students can take classes and do research across Penn’s undergraduate, graduate, and professional schools, allowing you to participate in Penn’s topnotch healthcare management and policy program as well as connecting you to the resources of a major research university with the feel of a small/medium liberal arts college.

There are a whole bunch of other reasons I chose Penn that I’d be happy to discuss if you have any other questions.

3

There are many ways to get more information about the two schools. They are academic peers so your decision should be based on personal preference. Both colleges can meet your needs.
–Have you visited?
–Have you read up on the schools in college guide books (ex. Fiske, Princeton Review, Insiders Guide)?
–Have you compared the curriculum of the two schools (information available online)?
–Have your read through the CC page for both schools?
–Have you looked extensively at both schools websites?

4

@PennCAS2014 Thank you so much for the detailed response! It is a big help in getting more first-hand info about Penn.

@happy1 I have done some of these things (visited, read-up a bit) but I guess I need to look more on CC and other publications for more in-depth info. Thank you for the suggestions!
I am a bit afraid of the core at Columbia and the degree to which that restricts my ability to pursue both majors. Does anyone known how easy/feasible it is to major both in Engineering and the College at Columbia?
I know that at Penn double majoring between SEAS and CAS is quite feasible.

5

Just a knee-jerk reaction, but you don’t seem like someone who would enjoy the Core.

6

Dunno about double majoring at Columbia, but the Engineering Core isn’t as intense as the Lib Arts core, but still has a decent number of requirement. I’m sure you can check on line.

7

Both Penn and Columbia are located in major cities, but from my experience, Penn seems to have more of a campus feel because it is secluded and separated from the city, whereas Columbia is more integrated into the city.

8

At Penn double majoring between Seas and CAS is quite easy and feasible. You do not have to complete the general requirements of both schools, just the general and major requirements of your home school and only the major requirements for the major in the other school. I don’t know about Columbia by if I had to guess I would say it is harder to do that.

9

Both places are great for pretty much all of the things you mentioned - for graduate preparation, for consulting work, for a rigorous environment, for research opportunities. I have heard (only second-hand) that Penn’s student life is more fun, and I’m inclined to believe it. Columbia students tend to be very, very active, although I would say by junior year a lot of that activity seems to happen off campus.

I wouldn’t say that Columbia’s campus is integrated into the city - not the main campus, anyway. It’s a pretty circumscribed campus between 114th St. and 120th St. and between Broadway and Amsterdam.

One thing I will say is that if you are interested in health research, most of Columbia’s health/medical schools and research facilities are located at the Columbia University Medical Center campus in 168th St., which is about 40-50 blocks north of the main campus. It’s pretty easy to get to - there’s a routine shuttle and a subway line that stops right outside both. However…for an undergrad, it may feel a little jarring or disconnected to have to go up there to do research, if you wanted.

Not true - definitely not true. I got my PhD at Columbia.

The vast majority of Core Curriculum classes are taught by professors. There are some sections taught by advanced doctoral students, but they’re highly qualified, not “random.” In order to teach in the Core, you have to be finished with your coursework and have advanced to doctoral candidacy, which means you’ve been in your program for 4+ years already. Most of the doctoral candidates teaching in the Core have been in their PhD programs for 5-6 years already and are writing their dissertations; they’ve largely read every book on the syllabus. You also have to be in a related department to teach in the Core - for example, only English PhD students can teach University Writing. This is especially true of Lit Hum, which is mainly taught by humanities students who have dissected those books six ways to Sunday.

Professors also lead every departmental level course at Columbia - graduate students don’t teach department courses offered during the academic year. (They are sometimes allowed to design and teach summer courses, but there’s a special program with a selection process you have to go through to do it. You only do it if you want to). Graduate students may lead recitation or discussion sections or serve as TAs, but they don’t teach full courses.

10

It’s hard for me to believe that any comparison between Penn and Columbia won’t eventually boil down to which city someone would want to live in for the next four years. I went to grad school at Penn and rarely set foot downtown. I’m a frequent visitor to the Upper West Side of Manhattan and I spot Columbia students on the Broadway local 24 hours a day. From what I can see, there’s very little sunlight between the two schools academically, but, a huge difference in terms of ambience.

11

Penn is a great city with much to offer, but NYC is NYC–it’s just that much more of what you look for in a city. Both places are going to attract talent, offer opportunities for research and business, etc. NYC is a capital of the world, while Philly is more regional.

But I think it’s safe to say that when people travel in and out of the country, they tend to go through NYC. They tend to ask to speak at Columbia as the Ivy of that City. You as a student have that much more contact with them. Philly has some nice museums. NYC has many more of them and they are world class. Philly has great food. NYC has entire neighborhoods where you feel that you’re in another country. Just get on the subway. Phillly has a great selection of performing arts. NYC is well . … . opera, Broadway, comedy. Music: ditto.

And so on.

12

@juillet perhaps things have changed since you got your phd at Columbia? According to Columbia’s student newspaper and my several friends who were undergrads there, what you described is not the case. The vast majority of core classes are actually not taught by full professors, unfortunately.

“Limited faculty engagement with the Core also remains an obstacle—despite monetary incentives offered to faculty to teach Core classes, participation remains low, and the majority of classes are taught by graduate students or lecturers.”
http://columbiaspectator.com/news/2016/10/13/core-seminars-constrained-class-size-space-limitations

And even with new incentives, participation remained low. Only a quarter of Core classes were taught by full faculty members: http://columbiaspectator.com/news/2016/09/22/despite-new-incentives-few-senior-faculty-teach-core-0

And further development of the Manhattanville campus has only had unfortunate consequences on the ability of Columbia College to provide its students with a quality, personalized education. http://columbiaspectator.com/lead/2016/05/05/unfunded-mandate-columbia-college-arts-and-sciences-and-bollinger-era#chapter-5

And again, columbia students generally lack faculty advising which makes it very challenging to build relationships with professors. Additionally, when core courses are taught by graduate students and post-doctoral fellows, those connections weaken because those two categories of instructors have higher turnover rates and they more frequently leave the university within 2 years, leaving students without the connections they may have otherwise cultivated with a full professor.
http://columbiaspectator.com/news/2016/02/04/lack-faculty-advising-limits-student-faculty-relationships-columbia-college-and

And anecdotally, friends of mine who participated in the core said that they often had graduate students teaching their classes who admitted having read only one text on the syllabus. Perhaps they were exaggerating but the feeling was not a good one.

13

Thank you so much to everyone who took the time to respond! Thanks for all the really helpful info!

As of now, I am almost certain I will be applying ED to Penn.

If anyone has any other insights to add please go ahead!