References a recently closed discussion on this board.
I’ll add that perfect scores and ‘hooked’ doesn’t mean admission to all elite schools.
This is true. However, I have a daughter who is graduating from UCB as a Regents Scholar. Prodis-Sulek’s phrasing should rather read “doesn’t guarantee a spot at Stanford, Princeton or Berkeley” Not “even Berkeley.” It seems she may be implying that somehow this world class university with its share of Nobel laureates is “less than” the other 2. It isn’t. Her phrasing is a litte insulting to this elite university’s students and their parents.
BTW the fact that perfect scores doesn’t lead to admission to top schools–that’s old news.
^^ Old news to the informed - lots of uninformed out there that haven’t got the memo.
^^agree - first time parents and students especially- It always comes as quite a shock that their student is not evaluated on merits alone. Some first timers have heard about legacy, but they haven’t heard about all the spots reserved for first gen, recruited athletes, Posse, Questbridge, other feeder programs and URM’s.
In other news: water is wet.
But snarky humor aside, this is a fact that bears repeating.
OTOH, I sometimes think whether it’s fair that a set of inspired essays can trump 4 years of hard work in HS. Not complaining but this thought has crossed my mind.
Have you read the UC admit thread this year? It’s pretty darn competitive. Don’t know which equivalents to Stanford and Princeton that might be more competitive than UCB
Perfect scores don’t mean admission to top schools like Cal.
On the rest we’ll have to disagree.
Nobody with poor stats is getting in on “inspired essays”. If they have strong enough stats to show they can do the work, then schools want to know, “What else have you got?” But a person with strong essays who didn’t have much to show for ECs (unless there is a very good story to go with that) and doesn’t have great recommendations (and they DO need those), isn’t getting in. Don’t forget that a student who may have been working in other ways (high need in their family so they are working to support them, helping with handicapped sib, etc) have been working, too – just not at the same things a privileged kid who can afford to put all their elbow great into classes, ECs, and SAT prep does.
One aspect left out is that not every high-stats student is a joy to have in the classroom, and lukewarm LORs can Scotch an application. Not saying that this is the case for the kid in the article, but it is relevant to this discussion.
Perfect score does not guarantee admission to many schools. Many students with high stat found their lower stat classmate got accepted but not them and accuse the college to have yield protection or Tufts syndrome. It may be the case for lower tier colleges. But for the schools that have accepted other students with very high stat, one should realize this is not the reason for their rejection. For top schools, even beyond the top 20, there is simply no over qualified applicants.
At all elite schools, there is a percentage of students who are selected primarily for their academic ability, and this percentage will vary based on the school and its institutional priorities. My personal opinion is that the percentages are relatively small at most Ivies, for instance, perhaps 10-20% of the student body depending on the school. Higher at places like MIT or CalTech.
At the “top” schools, this group of students cannot be judged on the basis of the standardized tests, as the tests are too easy in view of the level of academic ability that is sought to be identified. (In addition, there is always some test error and random component to scores, so there is little distinction between, say, a 1600 and a 1580, or a 35.75 - which will be rounded - or true 36 composite.) The level of ability that gets you into the running at the most elite schools on the basis of academics alone basically starts at perfect scores. For the rest of the applicants, test scores are just one more factor to consider.
So, it shouldn’t be a surprise that perfect scores do not guarantee admission. Nevertheless, I do think there are certain academic achievements that basically are a guarantee. I am most familiar with mathematics. IMO participants, and even the next rung down (MOP invitees or USAMO winners) basically are guaranteed admission to practically any school, with a few exceedingly rare exceptions, at least in my experience. I am sure there are other indicia of extraordinary ability in other fields as well.
Back to the Stanford, Princeton or Berkeley comment, Stanford Admissions (Info session) said their biggest competition for the students they want is Berkeley and MIT (not Princeton, Harvard or Yale).
^^ Yep kids in the tech sector. Most students that would pick HYP over Stanford probably don’t apply to Stanford.
^^Almost everyone looking at top colleges applies to Stanford. That’s why its admission rate is 4 point something percent. The denominator of applicants is huge…Has to include those applying to HYPM.
^^ My experience doesn’t agree. Lots of east coast kids don’t apply to Stanford unless they are tech oriented. My D didn’t, her BFF attending H and accepted to 3 Ivies/Duke/Chicago didn’t. It was brought up at Philly area Princeton accepted students meet up and the few cross admits still deciding were all HYP. Basically all kids looking at IB or something leading to Law School.
Yale is ranked #45 on this website, http://csrankings.org/#/fromyear/2007/toyear/2018/index?all, for computer science programs. Would the fairly low rank make it ever so slightly easier to get accepted there for Computer Science? Assuming the top CS students would be applying to the higher ranked schools? Or does that not make sense at all?
@SatchelSF Even IMO participation is not a guarantee. I know a kid who was on the US team a few years back. Admitted to MIT, rejected at Harvard.
I too can attest that perfect stats even if paired with great extracurriculars, essays and LORs are no guarantee for admission, specially if you are a non legacy/ non athlete ORM coming from a competitive big suburban public school.
My kid had perfect stats for GPA, SAT, AP, PSAT etc paired with dedicated extracurriculars. He didnt take tution or attend prep centers, neither took ACT ir retook SAT. He is well respected/well liked and considered an exceptional writer so i imagjne his essays and LORs were decent too. However, he was accepted by some elites and rejected or waitlisted by some similar ones. Institutional needs trump things like accomplishments.
As Stanford and Berkley has been mentioned few times as schools where everyone applies, i must add that he didn’t apply to either and also not to several others of same calibre. He only applied to a small number of schools he was interested in and couple of safties.