Piano study advice needed

corranged · July 17, 2007, 7:21pm

Thanks for the info, Binx. I looked at conservatories for my first instrument (not piano) but for a variety of reasons decided not to apply. I was looking mostly at joint BA/BM programs like those at Hopkins, Northwestern, and Michigan. Anyway, my best to your daughter.

DreamMom, Allmusic hit the nail on the head regarding accompanying. He needs to sight read well, keep on tempo, respond well to errors (by himself or others) and put himself in the background.

If he has facility with the piano, getting started on another type of music shouldn’t take all that long at all. With certain styles there will be some changes he’d have to get used to, but if he’d enjoy it, definitely try it out. With non-classical music, in my experience, it’s more likely that a teacher will be fine with a student who practices a couple of times a week. I think non-classical teachers also tend to respond more to what the student wants to learn and play.

This may not be an issue at all, but would he be more interested in a male teacher? A young teacher? I know some students respond better to or feel more comfortable with teachers of a certain age or gender. Sometimes a particular teacher will actually inspire the student to practice more, if the student looks up to that teacher. I have a male teacher who is pretty young (but a really wonderful–and wonderfully trained–musician), and we really have a great, lively relationship that wouldn’t be the same if my teacher were an old lady.

I worked at a music/arts conservatory last year, by the way, so I know a lot of music teachers and a lot of students. The combination of the right student with the right teacher is very important.

michuncle · July 17, 2007, 9:03pm

Formal statement: I don’t play any musical instruments period.

I do have a nephew who studied piano beginning in middle school through high school (at the behest of his mother who wanted to broaden his “horizons”). He learned to play classical music pieces and did a few recitals. It was not his life’s ambition to become a concert pianist. He did it to please his mother. Mario World trumped Mozart. He’s going to be a college senior this fall and it’s probably been three years since he even looked at a piano. Ah, the ghosts of piano students past, present and future!

If your son doesn’t have a passion for his instrument at this stage of the game and be self motivated to practice, I’m afraid it’s time to let go…

I’m surprised that no one has mentioned the PBS program “Scott, the Piano Guy”. Scott Houston makes the point that there are classical pianists and everybody else (i.e. people who want to play non-classical music). Your son and my nephew took the path to “classical music-ville”. I can’t speak for your son, but my nephew has never expressed to me his burning desire to again practice the piano.

Scott’s method is to teach people to play popular music using a musician’s “Fake” book which has hundreds of contemporary and holiday pieces rendered in easy to understand musical nomenclature. I’m sure your son has all the basics down to breeze through Houston’s program and has some fun doing it. Your son gives up Mozart and gets to play a mean version of “Misty”. Boy, I’d kill to play “Misty” at a party…

The next time your local PBS station runs their Pledge drive, look for the “Scott, the Piano Guy” program and check it out… Your son will more likely continue to play the piano if he could play music that he likes. Remember, the number of classical pianists pales in comparison to pianist playing in hotel bars…playing “Misty”.

jmmom · July 17, 2007, 9:12pm

I will go at this in what I think is an entirely different way, as most of the posters so far on this thread have depth of expertise and experience in the music performance world.

My S studied his instrument (drums, percussion) starting at about 4th grade. Over the years, in addition to pursuing the instrument in school band, he participated in jazz ensemble, jazz band, symphonic band and took private lessons with the most sought-after teacher in our area. He loved the instrument and practiced beyond what was asked of him for quite a while.

At a certain point, he didn’t want to practice as much nor continue with lessons. We consulted with his private teacher who advised that we should let him choose whether to continue. He stopped.

A year or 18 months later, he took it up again, of his own volition, with the same teacher and with increased passion.

I don’t see how the OP son’s interests fit with a discussion of music performance major or minor. Nor continued lessons if he doesn’t see the need.

He wants to have fun with it. Leave it at that. It’s not necessarily the end of the line. He will stay with it, or pick it back up in whatever way suits him best.

DreamMom · July 18, 2007, 12:50pm

Allmusic, great info! Thanks!

Binx, my thoughts exactly. It will be a shame to put music on a back burner if the interests are still there . While I know S will not go to a conservatory, I will not yet rule out a double major or minor. Thanks for the heads up on the cost of weekly lessons. Ill definitely keep that in mind!

Corranged, you are absolutely right about the importance of having the right teacher. I did notice that S responds better to teachers of a particular gender (even in regular school). Luck seems to play a part in finding the right teacher for HS kids though. The parent, not the student, is usually the one who locates the teacher and does the initial screening for locale, schedule, cost, expertise, experience, credentials, personality, age, gender, etc. before teacher and kid even meet. Not easy to do (especially for one with no background in music).

Jmmom, thanks for the reminder! I have to remember that stopping lesson does not necessarily mean quitting for good. Right now, S still wants to continue with lessons and play the piano. He just doesnt want to work too hard on the instrument. :(

DreamMom · July 18, 2007, 12:52pm

Michuncle, hats off to your nephew! Now, now, there is nothing wrong to do something nice to please one’s mother, is there? I actually found some Mario music on the internet when S was younger. Yes, Mario and Mozart can co-exist. I, too, would love to hear Misty. . . Problem is, S doesn’t know many of the oldies and goodies. These tunes seem to appeal to the more “matured” crowd! I also think it would be fun to do “keyboarding” (is that the right word?) in a band. We have gawked at some expensive keyboards and I was amazed by the electronic gadgetry. That thing can play music by itself! Maybe I should check out Scott the Piano Guy myself. Who knows, I may even learn to play Misty.

mythmom · July 18, 2007, 1:42pm

Doubleplay: I hope I do not sound to stupid in this post. I would really like to know what you think, but I do understand your reluctance to tell us.

My Ds plays violin, viola and piano. He started with piano at 4 1/2 and violin at 7. Taught himself viola (and somewhere in there also played sax for a while.)

I don’t think my son is a talented as OP’s because he could not have reached that level of proficiency without daily practice. However, his practice rarely exceeded 1 hour on piano and one hour on violin. To be fair, he had a very rigorous academic schedule, many extra-curriculars and didn’t have more time.

He had multiple violin teachers because of various curcumstances, but the same piano teacher since 5th grade. Teacher is Juilliard trained with European concert career. He also records. I don’t say this to brag, because S is certainly not talented enough need such a teacher, but he does live locally and agreed at audition to take my son as a student. His criteria? That son is musical. DT said that son never walked in without showing him that he understood what the composer was trying to say and that he always heard expression and emotion in son’s playing. His way of expressing it was, “It was always a happy hour.” If son had had performing goals I know Jeff’s appraoch would have been different. Sometime’s I was a bit annoyed at how laid back Jeff was with him, but these were just my values. Son and teacher were happy with each other. He says Jeff is more of a guru than a teacher.

Violin teachers have been stricter, but son had goal of becoming firsr chair of orchestra. However, here too, he did not practice more than hour a day, and again, I must say there are more talented dedicated students. Still, he worked hard for him (ADD, and left-handed, which I do think made bowing more of an issue.) Result? He did make all all-county orchestras, but never all-state. However, on Long Island this is very competitive. He also did finally get to be concert master of his orchestra for senior year. He also spent two weeks last summer in a program that required him to practice 6 hours a day, and he did !

Along the way, he discovered composition and he loves it.

A funny aside, he did get 100 on NYSSMA playing exam, but only for piano.

For college. He did receive monetary scholarships based on his dedication to music, one for $1000, one for $100. He did not apply to any conservatories, and quite frankly, if he had, I don’t think he would have been accepted. However, I do think his acceptance to his highly selective LAC, a school he was very committed to being accepted at, was greatly helped by musical training an interest. He does want to be a music major but not a performer. He also wants to be a doctor.

My point? Your son sounds fine. He obviously loves music and will find his place in it. New teacher sounds fine because it sounds like he is actually stretching and progressing. Very few students will actually be able to achieve successful performing careers, and statistics say that this is even true for Juilliard grads. So kids should find their own levels. Music has substantially enriched my son’s life and made him who he is. It will always be part of his life. I don’t regret my monetary investment at all, even though he will never achieve the success of say, violadad’s son. Just not his karma.

mathmom · July 18, 2007, 2:07pm

I was wooed by a Scot Joplin playing future physicist back in college. I’d love to be able to play piano the way he did!

My son’s current violin teacher has only taught him classical pieces so far, but she was suitably encouraging about him getting an electric violin so he could play rock music too. (She plays with a group that does sort of folk rock/Celtic/New Agey stuff as well as a more classic quartet.)

mythmom · July 18, 2007, 2:34pm

mathmom: My son also tried bluegrass. Orange Bossom Specialm is demanding and fun. His very “classical” teacher was happy to give it him. He’s been perfecting it gor a long time, and the very fastest passages has eluded him more than the Mendelssohn symphony he is currently preparing. It is always a crowd pleaser and a solo piece. DS played it for his induction into the National Tri-M Music Honor Society at his h.s. After all the classical pieces crowd was very appreciative, even with some flubbing that S handled in a refreshingly comic style.

violadad · July 18, 2007, 4:51pm

mythmom wrote:

I’ve got to agree completely with mythmom, and tried to convey the same message in my earlier post.

Just a couple of points for the OP to keep in mind for the future should son decide on a structured music major or minor

-Music degrees are either BA or BM, “M” meaning music. The BA is a liberal arts degree, whereas a BM is more like a Bachelor of Science, involving more in depth concentration of study and more coursework requiring practical application and effective demonstration of learned skills.

-Programs at the BM level in almost all music disciplines require an audition demonstrating a high level of proficiency on a primary instrument. BA music programs may or may not require an audition, and the audition is judged at a less stringent criteria than a “performance” major.

-I’m unaware of any institution that grants a BA in instrumental performance.

-Depending on the college, there can be a broad base of selection for courses that would consitute a minor, or a minor “core” curriculum with a specified credit load of additional electives. The ability to minor and the courses offered are very school specific.

I just don’t recall anyone mentioning the difference between the available college level programs and the basic audition scenarios between the two types of degrees. It’s important to know if the OP’s son chooses to go forward at the degree level.

mstee · July 18, 2007, 11:41pm

Well, my 13 year old says she wants to learn piano now. Last attempt was a few jazz lessons from a high school graduate last summer. She has tried, I think, four teachers over the years, and didn’t click with any of them. So, I finally gave up on piano for her. And now she is asking. Go figure.

anon94785555 · July 19, 2007, 12:17am

I know someone majoring in music performance (specific instrument) at Syracuse U who switched from going for a BM to a BA.

DreamMom · July 19, 2007, 2:23am

Mythmom, you have expressed my feelings perfectly. Sounds like your S and my S share some common interests. Mine also plays the violin and viola in the school orchestra. A not-too-strong strings player (self taught, poor techniques, no interest in private lesson), S stays in the orchestra primarily for social reasons. This is not a strong orchestra. S simply leaves his instrument in school all year and never brings it home for practice.

Given that context, you can see two or three hours a week is a lot of practice time for my S!

Violadad, thank you for the insight about college majors and minors. What I have learned from you is that there are many considerations involved in such a path (audition, type of degree, course requirements, etc.). Ill start researching the process! My guess is S will be studying math or science as his primary interest. Music, should he choose that at all, will be secondary.

violadad · July 19, 2007, 12:20pm

DreamMom- one of the best overviews regarding music at the college level can be found here: <a href=“http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/787[/url]”>http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/787</a>

Also, an excellent series here as well: <a href=“R-3 Repository :: Home”>R-3 Repository :: Home;

mercymom · July 20, 2007, 1:04pm

To the OP:

Let your son dictate his course…to an extent. First read the stuff posted above from JHU; someone posted some of this elsewhere and I read it and they have excellent advice and excellent analysis of the various types of teenage musicians out there. Your S will fit one of the profiles and you’ll feel like an expert has told you what you need to hear. Second, balance backing off with realizing he’s still a kid and they don’t always know enuf to make an informed decision, evev tho’ they think they do.

My S’s piano teacher solved this dilemma for us by up and moving out of state on about a week’s notice. Not very professional imo, but it did leave a vacuum of time and money that allowed him to focus on his voice lessons, which he will be using for his college auditions. He still plays piano for fun and to help with his singing, and all the sight reading and music theory also are essential for the vocal performance, so none of it is wasted. He pals around with other music kids in a garage band, which is great musically and socially. All good things.

Finally, once while contemplating possible change of piano teachers before the one he had skipped town, S emphatically said he didn’t want a competitive studio with prodigies and competitions (everyone always prepping for the next competition). Several of his friends at school were in studios like that and to a one they hated the practice and the competitions, and eventually hated the piano and quit (ironically two of them are also now in the vocal arena). To me the goal should be a love of music and playing for the enjoyment. IF the kid takes it further, let him, but don’t force the issue or you could ruin the entire experience for them.

I heard an interview on NPR with some composer prodigy kid who went to Juilliard during hs and is going to IU Bloomington for college. He is the music director of some program in NJ (where they used to have to negotiate for the “stars” to play his work 'cause he was a teenager, but now they love him and respect his work). That boy probably couldn’t breathe and continue living on a daily basis if he didn’t practice and work on his music hours each day. When a kid feels that way you would be hurting him if you DIDN’T let him go with the best and work like crazy. The talent and the drive will out, imo. In other words, you’ll know it when you see it. Don’t confuse your goals/desires/ aspirations with those of your child’s.

doubleplay · July 20, 2007, 3:21pm

I can’t agree with mercymom’s post more.

To use a hackneyed adage, “you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.” 
Within this context, that means that basically there’s nothing you can do, and certainly nothing a piano teacher can do, that will make a student practice harder than he is willing.

The BEST you can do is help him develop a love for music. If someone is in love with music, they inevitably will continue playing and learning for the rest of their life…whether by taking piano lessons, guitar, singing, whatever.

I understand the pain of having a child give up on an instrument they are good at. My best student broke my heart, and he was my youngest son. He still has the most incredible feel for music and technical ability that I’ve ever seen. But he decided he was tired of piano and switched to trumpet in 6th grade. :(. Now he’s graduated from hs and plays the guitar. Recently, to my delight, he picked up some piano music (Clair de Lune) and started learning it, entirely on his own. My heart did little flippy flops. :)

My oldest son was never interested in piano at all. I tried and tried to sit down with him and get him started, but he just wouldn’t “cooperate”, so I gave up. He took up the drums, and the next thing you know- his band director made him learn the xylophone! He has always LOVED the drums though and will go up to his room and play for hours (will come downstairs, literally, in a sweat).

Last winter he was home and decided he wanted to learn piano. He had the unbelievable audacity to ask me why I didn’t teach him piano like his little brother. I laughed in his face, and told him I tried, but he wouldn’t do it. He said, “Well you should have MADE me do it!” CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT??? :eek:

mythmom · July 20, 2007, 4:25pm

Yeah, I can. I wanted my son to play Suzuki violin when ne was 3. Call me psychic, but I had the vision of him playing the violin. He completely resisted (and frankly, because I wasn’t working at the time, and it was very expensive), and I let the subject drop.

At 4 1/2 he begged to play piano. He is still playing, as I described in other posts. When he was seven, I took him to a violin making workshop which left him wanting to play the violin. This time I did not go the Suzuki route because he could already read music. 
Some nerve! (LOL.)

Incidently, that violin making workshop paid off because he esigned and built his own “balalaika” for a science olympiad without any directions. Medaled in locals, bombed at states (cou;ldn’t answer all complicated physics questions.)

However, even though he says I should have forced him, he also says violin making workshop tricked him into it. Maybe he’s right!

great_lakes_mom · July 20, 2007, 11:14pm

I took the regret I’ve heard from many adults regarding having given up instruments, and combined with the Suzuki philosophy, kept my girls playing through the hard middle years of violin where practice was decidedly not fun. It took a certain amount of determination and forced positivity, as well as letting go of expectations at times, but has paid off. They’re good fuctional orchestral and quartet violists and violinists, not amazing as with many of the Suzuki students in our program, but is ok. Remembering my own adolescence, I wanted them to have a skill to identify with. In HS, they did enjoy being concert master, and some of the acclaim that came with playing well. They have some scholarship money as a result, and a skill that is quite useful in a variety of situations. No way would they be music majors, but hopefully they’ll continue to play at some level, at least through college. Sometimes I wonder if they’d have more of a fire for it if it had been more of a self discovery process. But I wanted them to have good instruction and develop dicipline, to some extent anyhow.

mythmom · July 21, 2007, 12:10am

Well, it sounds like they were fairly cooperative so that sounds fine. We did eventually go to a Suzuki school too, until DS outgrew group lessons.

My D on the other hand was much less serious about playing instruments (I won’t say music because she spent her time as a dancer) than S. She had had piano lessons for a year or so but detested practicing. One day I suggested that she quit. Her reply, “You mean I can”? The deal I made with her was that she give another instrument a try in fourth grade when everyone else does too. She picked flute and stayed with it through senior year, eventually playing in wind ensemble, jazz band and orchestra (we don’t have a marching band). She doesn’t really play anymore, but she did learn to really appreciate music, in particular Mozart. Predictably, my violinist loves Bach and almost anything on the piano.

Speaking of violin, does anyone listen to Hilary Hahn? She’s magnificent. Sorry if this is too much off-topic.

DreamMom · July 21, 2007, 2:14am

Violadad provided great links!

When I was growing up, I understood from my family that playing music was only for the very rich (who can afford lessons and instruments) or the very poor (think street musicians! :eek: ). Learning an instrument never crossed my mind. I grew up only listening to pop music and had no interest in classical music.

I did not actively seek music lesson for my own kids. S became an accidental piano student and I made a decision to support him as long as he is interested. Through sons playing and others recitals, I was exposed to a whole new world of classical music. His playing has enriched my own life and I feel blessed. To me, the cost of his music lessons is worth putting my fixer-upper house and my old car on the back burner (again).

At the same time, I am secretly relieved that S doesnt have what it takes to become a professional musician. Old notions of the starving artists die hard. :o

Allmusic · July 21, 2007, 7:03am

Like GLM, we knew people who regretted giving up their instruments, during those hard middle school years when no one wants to practice.

My son, to this day, remembers a peptalk he received when he was 10, from a young man who heard him play and encouraged him not give up his piano in adolescence, as he had. There were several moments in middle school where S seemed a bit bored, but sometimes it meant he needed a new teacher (who gave him a new push), and sometimes he just needed encouragement to keep going (he kept getting kudos, and compliments and encouragement, which is certainly supportive!), or yes, some other genres or periods of music (he discovered that he loves playing atonal modern classical…not everyone’s cuppa tea!). ;)

As we head into conservatory audition season, it is obvious to everyone what music means to this kid, and how it defines his life. OTOH, had he really started to balk at practicing or whatnot, after awhile, no encouragement or praise or new teachers would have made a whit of difference, and he would have quit (whether or not he would have regretted it later). I think the personality of the kid, the level of real ability, and so forth, all come together and make it pretty clear how they will utilize music in their lives, and by high school, the students themselves are usually very clear on their own paths.

(I know all about putting off home repairs etc. to fund music lessons, camps etc. DM!)

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