Piano study – advice needed

Parent Cafe
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<p>S is a rising HS junior and has taken piano lessons for many years. He is musical (this from a mom who has no background in music). However, S does not like to practice the piano much - he thinks practicing over a hour every day is way too much. He says he just want to play the piano for fun. He ignores any practice requirements and practices as long as he deems necessary (averaging twice a week for about an hour each - with additional time for recitals). He manages to do well in almost all his recitals. He has only studied classical music thus far.</p>

<p>S had a piano teacher who has many talented, hard-working and advanced students (prodigies caliber). In that studio, S has always been the small fish in the big pond. Due to schedule conflicts, S switched to a new teacher last spring who, to our surprise, do not have many advanced students. Overnight, S became the big fish in a small pond.</p>

<p>Long term, I doubt S would become a piano performance major (he doesn’t yet know what he wants to study). Personally, I just hope S would have a richer life with music as his friend.</p>

<p>I need feedback from knowledgeable people on what I should consider regarding S’s piano study. Please share any thoughts you have regarding the following:</p>

<p>1) This fall, should S go back to previous teacher, stay with current teacher, find another new teacher, or not have a teacher at all? S has no clear preference between the previous and current teachers (pro and con with both). </p>

<ul>
<li><p>Previous teacher feels that S is talented but does not have the discipline or passion to become a serious musician (I agree). This teacher had low expectation of S given S’s practice habits. </p></li>
<li><p>Current teacher is impressed by S’s abilities. I persuaded current teacher to let S do whatever S claims he can do (however unrealistic the claim is). As a result, in the last 4 months, S learned a whole new repertoire of materials of his own choosing (including materials that previous teacher said he was not ready for). However, I can’t tell if S is performing at a “high level” with the new materials since everything he plays sound good to me!</p></li>
<li><p>S claims that he can learn whatever he wants without a teacher should I need to cut expenses. Knowing S, I don’t think he would make much progress under this scenario (this kid needs structure). But, oh, the money I can save! </p></li>
</ul>

<p>2) I wonder how important it is to have a peer group in piano study. Students of previous teacher are inspirational yet S will never be part of the Awards-Winning Clique unless he practices a lot more seriously. Students of current teacher are too young and inexperienced. S wasn’t even proud to be the new Top Dog.</p>

<p>3) To maintain piano skills, how important is it to continue lessons all the way through high school and maybe college? I imagine one has to quit lesson sooner or later - when is a good time to quit? Do most non-music majors quit private lessons when they get to college??? (I can’t imagine paying for music lessons in addition to college tuition and other expenses…) If S does not play any piano in college (say for 4 years), will he lose a lot of the piano skills he has acquired prior to college? </p>

<p>4) Is there such a thing as a minor in piano performance in college? What piano playing opportunities are there for non-music majors in college? I assume any non-music major won’t get to be the one pianist in the school orchestra…. </p>

<p>5) Any suggestion on how to make piano study more “fun” for a bright but not hard working teenager? :)</p>

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<p>OP, I suggest you repost this on the music majors forum, where you will find a lot of parents who know more about music than on the general parents forum.</p>

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<p>I teach piano, but to be honest, I don’t want to express my views on here about piano teaching because when I’ve done so previously it’s led to my philosophy becoming the subject of criticism and debate. Sorry!!!</p>

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<p>My son just graduated with a BM in viola performance and is on the cusp of a of grad school and a professional performance career. I’ll give you our experience and some thoughts.</p>

<p>Son was the youngest in class. As such, lacked small motor skills and when offered the instrument in third grade, we took advantage of it as a means to improve those skills. He picked it up, and fell in love. Never had to urge him to practice, he progressed very rapidly. The instrument, and music in general became his passion and his choice of career.</p>

<p>His sister, two years younger played the same instrument. She was “normal”. She practiced, then would not. While she didn’t hate it, nor did she really enjoy it. Fortunately, her public school teachers were astute enough not to compare her to her brother; her abilities were consistent with the bulk of the kids. She talked about dropping every year, but did not give it up till high school. We did not object.</p>

<p>If he’s thinking about any aspect of music as a potential major or minor I’d say stay at the higher level teacher, but something tells me there may be conflicts in style or personality with the first teacher. You may need a different option than teacher 2 if he’s considering music in college. </p>

<p>Instrumental performance majors at the conservatory level are practicing (not playing) from 3-6 hours daily. Often more.</p>

<p>If he is not internally driven, I would say don’t push. If he participates in music or a performing instrument at high school, part of the grade MAY be contingent upon private lessons, be it in school or out. I’d predicate lessons on the grading requirements only.</p>

<p>Leave the choice to him. He can diddle on his own. Many playing at a high (not necessarily competitive) level are in some part self taught. What he’s missing from not having lessons would be technique, insight and may acquire bad habits. Sightreading and basic theory knowledge might well suffer.</p>

<p>Potentially hard to correct if he chooses performance as a major or later decides to kick his ability up a few notches. At this point, if he hasn’t driven himself, you or his teacher probably can’t.</p>

<p>He can always decide to continue study privately later, while in college, or beyond. At many schools, a good undergrad, grad or doctoral student can prove adequate to improve his skills.</p>

<p>Music is personal. If he misses it, he’ll want to go back. He has enough knowledge to pursue it as far as the Muse drives HIM. I wouldn’t push an uninterested kid into science, business or baseball. You have exposed him to it, and he’ll continue to benefit but within his own benchmarks.</p>

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<p>I don’t teach piano…but both of my kids took piano lessons (second or third instrument for both). In my opinion, if a student does not practice what the teacher tells them to practice without being nagged to do so by the parent, then the student probably isn’t very serious about studying the instrument. If your son wants to play piano for fun, let him do so with the teacher who will let him do so for fun…if you are willing to pay for that. At this point, I would let the student make the call.</p>

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<p>Your son is old enough to decide which teacher he would prefer to study with, isn’t he? What is his opinion? </p>

<p>As far as his material he learned with the new teacher goes, have him play it for someone who is knowledgeable and have that person give feedback. </p>

<p>There are lots of opportunities for non-majors to play in college – vocalists and instrumentalists are always looking for accompianists. Ensembles that the kids themselves put together is another thing. If he takes lessons, there will be recitals. </p>

<p>Some colleges let you take lessons without majoring in music.</p>

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<p>I took piano lessons for 11 years, and switched teachers after 8 years when her practice requirements got to be too strict for me and I wasn’t getting to play as hard of music as I wanted. My last three years of lessons were the most productive and fun because I was directing my study more. If your son has been enjoying the chance to learn all new, harder repertoire (even if not perfectly), I’d suggest that he stay with this new teacher. If he’s not interested in becoming a professional musician, he won’t need to play everything absolutely perfect, but if he’s anything like I was, he’ll love the challenge of playing anything new and hard. </p>

<p>I always enjoyed the chance to hear older/better students play. Perhaps if your son doesn’t get that opportunity with his new teacher, maybe try to go to recitals (of the old teacher?) or try to set up two piano duets just for fun with another young accomplished pianist.</p>

<p>I definitely had a difficult time progressing without lessons when I eventually quit. I think that keeping up with them throughout high school is a good idea, and college is a good time to break away as there are so many other things to get involved with. Some schools will let you take lessons with grad students or professors for reduced fees (look for schools that have a music conservatory associated with them). When you’re looking at colleges for him, regardless of what he ends up studying, try to find places that have pianos available for all students (my university has pianos in each dorm in addition to those reserved for music majors). I chose to stop taking lessons in college, but I have definitely not stopped playing! It might be a couple days or a couple weeks before I have time to sit down at a piano, but it all comes back so quickly. I wouldn’t go perform a recital without some serious practice, but I have fun and relieve stress whenever I sit down to play. Playing piano in a dorm is a great conversation starter too, I met lots of people that way (although you do have to get used to people staring over your shoulder with their mouths gaping) :-)</p>

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<p>Stay with the new teacher.</p>

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<p>Follow the lead of your son. I quit nagging about son’s practicing his instument when he got a top music festival score without practicing at home, after that he never did as well due to changing interests/priorities. Your son may max out on his interest, let him. He is old enough to decide how serious he wants to be about piano playing. By now he has enough years in he can use what he knows as a stress reliever. Let it be a pleasure, not a chore.</p>

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<p>I am going to answer your questions out of order. I hope you don’t mind. :)</p>

<p>First off, let me say that I am a student (going into my 2nd year in college) and a musician. I played an instrument at a high level from about grades 1-12. I practiced a good amount, and I loved music, but I never really clicked with that instrument. Flash to last summer when I decided to take piano lessons. I was with a strict, talented Russian teacher with some very impressive music degrees. At my third lesson, I was given a piece that is considered 3rd or 4th year level. I could play it–not very well, but I could play it–a week and a half later. I was working 10 hour days on normal days, but during that summer I was playing music for 3, 4, sometimes more hours a day. I love the piano and practicing piano music more than almost anything in the world, and I will always regret not beginning piano lessons as a child, which would have given me the opportunity to study the piano throughout school and the chance to perhaps study piano performance in college.</p>

<p>Anyway, to your questions:</p>

<p>4) Is there such a thing as a minor in piano performance in college?
Not that I know of. It also doesn’t sound as if your son would want to study piano performance in college. Even if a minor program existed, I would expect it to require at least two hours of hard daily practice. Violadad touched on a good point: this would not be practicing by playing through pieces or fooling around with tough passages but actual, hard, organized practice. Many musicians practice very poorly. I don’t know your son’s practice habits, but at a couple hours a week, I doubt he’s ready for the demanding practice techniques or schedule any piano performance program would/should require.</p>

<p>3) To maintain piano skills, how important is it to continue lessons all the way through high school and maybe college? I imagine one has to quit lesson sooner or later - when is a good time to quit? Do most non-music majors quit private lessons when they get to college???
To maintain piano skills, practice is more important than lessons. Regular practice and ocassional lessons would be needed to maintain a level of play. To maintain some skill, ocassional practice is needed. The “right time” to stop taking lessons depends on the student and his goals. Many professional musicians I know play for each other at times and get feedback, which is a form of lesson. Most professions stop sometime after finishing their degree (sometimes right after and othertimes a couple of years after). Most former piano students in the United States stopped lessons before college. They play every once in a while but do not maintain many pieces or skills. They do not value the piano or music in their lives anymore. That’s OK, and that’s what normally happens, even with students who were quite serious in high school. As Violadad said, it has to be internal. A student will only put in the effort to continue if it’s something that he needs and values for himself. It’s normal for a student to stop lessons in high school or before college. </p>

<p>*2) I wonder how important it is to have a peer group in piano study. *
I think this depends on the student. My peer group is my piano teacher, whom I really have a great relationship with. Some students want a constant peer group, while others are more flexible.</p>

<p>1) This fall, should S go back to previous teacher, stay with current teacher, find another new teacher, or not have a teacher at all?
If you have the money to afford a teacher, let your son decide. Would he be interested in studying jazz, blues, pop, or rock and roll? If so, he may have a great time with a new teacher. I don’t know where you are and what kind of choices you have, but neither teacher seems to really satisfy you very much. If you do go for a new teacher, have your son talk to the teacher about his particular goals and what he wants out of lessons. In fact, if you stay with either of the previous teachers, it would be a good idea to do this. If the teacher doesn’t think that it’s enough, your son can decide whether to do more or find a new teacher. I feel very lucky because I ended up finding a teacher who I really love. He has a couple of philosophies that other teachers may disgaree with, but he respects me as a musician and as a person, and we have a great dynamic together. It’s definitely a relationship. If you think about it in terms of a relationship, you may be able to look at potential teachers in new ways.</p>

<p>5) Any suggestion on how to make piano study more “fun” for a bright but not hard working teenager?
There’s not much you can do. If he likes to compete, you can look into competitions, but I’m not sure he would be at the level to enjoy competing. I’d guess that many students his age in competitions are very serious. If he’s interested in another type of music, that’s definitely something to look into. I really think that this is internal, though. The satisfacation I get from music is beyond anything I can describe. When I sit and practice in a good environment (i.e. alone and comfortable at a good piano), I feel as if I could play forever, as if it’s the only thing I want or need to do. You can’t manufacture that.</p>

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<p>Encourage him to keep taking lessons, but stay with the current teacher, or whatever teacher he deems best for him. Yes, he’d do better, probably have better technique with the other teacher. But his drive is not there, and he sounds like he’s finding his own place within his interest level. Musicians, as all of us, tend to do better with that anticipation of a lesson mandating practice. And who knows, giving him a little space to discover his own musical interests and initiative with a teacher who gives him a little space may help him discover how much he values it after all.</p>

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<p>Doubleplay - I didn’t know (or remember) that you are a piano teacher. I am, too, but I do not have a degree in music. I kinda “fell” into teaching.</p>

<p>Dreammom, FYI - I also have two kids (of 3) majoring in music. Several posters have hit the main points. I want to disagree with corranged on the music minor – some schools do have performance minors. Music degrees are tricky - you can research the music forum on CC for more detail. There are BA, BM (performance), BFA (fine arts) and minors - and different schools offer different ones. Furman, for example, offers a BA or a BM and treats their BA more like a minor. Miami Ohio offers a minor (and a BA and a BM). So yes, a minor is possible.</p>

<p>I liked Thumper’s answer about letting him do it for fun. I try to impress upon the parents of my students that it is okay to do music for the fun of it. So many times, if a kid isn’t the star, we figure it isn’t worth doing. Having music lessons is a great way to develop a love and understanding of music. </p>

<p>One last comment - as my kids have switched teachers over the years, I’ve come to appreciate the effect a teaching style and/or personality can have on my kid. I thank God that my kids have had teachers that inspire them and praise them and bring out the best in them. I have also pulled my kids out from one teacher that I felt was taking some of the thrill away.</p>

<p>I don’t know if you should stay with the second teacher, or find a new one, but I personally don’t think you should go back to the first.</p>

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<p>Sounds like your S is trying to tell you that he thinks he plays the piano well enough to do what he wants to do with the piano (have fun) and doesn’t need more “progress” to fulfill his needs. I would take him at his word and save the $$ you spend on piano lessons for college.</p>

<p>My D took piano lessons well into high school and then quit because her schedule got too hairy (she plays another instrument). She still loves to play and will often tinkle the ivories when she comes home from college. The piano gives her great pleasure and she doesn’t regret stopping lessons or not practicing hours a day–even though she could play better than she does now.</p>

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<p>While I don’t think a lot of musicians consider practice “fun”, most who are serious recognize the importance of doing it. </p>

<p>I would absolutely quit nagging your son to practice. Does he want to continue to play piano? Would he rather just fool around and have fun (no problem at all with that), play a different repertoire than just classical? There are many ways to enjoy piano that don’t involve being a performance major or minor. And at his age, if he really would like to stop taking lessons altogether, I would listen to him. He certainly has a good foundation at this point, and there is no reason he couldn’t pick up lessons again at a later time, when he is more interested in doing the necessary work, if he chose to do so.</p>

<p>My son has had four piano teachers in 11 years, and each time he moved to a new teacher, he made a major leap. As he has gotten older, he has been the driver in piano teacher choice, since he has had to “audition” for them, and there was a mutual choosing process. I figured that he had to be part of the decision making process, since it was his lesson, not mine. So, if your son decides to continue, I would also solicit his opinion as to which teacher he would prefer to study with.</p>

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Are there schools where a student can pursue a liberal arts major while looking at a performance minor–not just a muisc minor? I’ve never heard of that. I do stand by the fact that the OP’s son doesn’t sound as if he would want to study for a performance degree, minor or not.</p>

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<p>I agree with you about the OP’s S, corranged. </p>

<p>Here is Miami-OH’s list of majors and minors. Their music “minor in performance” is in their Fine Arts discipline. With a minor, you do not have to meet the core requirements of the discipline. My D is looking at a BM major, and a College of Arts and Sciences minor, so she does not have to meet the CAS core requirements. The reverse would be true for someone looking to minor in music.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.miami.muohio.edu/academics/majorsminors/index.cfm[/url]”>http://www.miami.muohio.edu/academics/majorsminors/index.cfm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The caveat here is that, in all honesty, I do not believe Miami’s music program is anything close to a conservatory environment. I do not know what the higher-level music programs offer by way of minors - we have never looked for that.</p>

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<p>Carnegie Mellon allows kids to minor in music. <a href=“http://music.web.cmu.edu/programs.php?program=NonMajor&concentration=minor&sub=minor_conducting[/url]”>http://music.web.cmu.edu/programs.php?program=NonMajor&concentration=minor&sub=minor_conducting&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>As to the OP, I think her son should make the choice, but my gut feeling is that even though he isn’t practicing enough to be a serious musician he’s getting a lot more out of teacher no. 2 than teacher no. 1. I’m no musician, I think there is value in learning to play well enough for enjoyment not just performance.</p>

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<p>Thank you all for your responses! Your thoughts really help me look at S’s piano lessons more objectively.</p>

<p>Part of my struggles comes from S’s personality. He is very laid back, very nonchalant about EVERYTHING. He is a great believer in not doing anything unless you absolutely have to. I have never seen him jumping-up-and-down-excited. While his behavior is clear about what he does NOT want to do (never completed a practice record for any music teacher), he seems very unsure about what he does want to do. The fact that he goes along with an activity means that he is definitely interested in the activity - or he just hasn’t ruled it out yet.</p>

<p>S still wants to take piano lessons after all these years. This may be as close to “passionate” as he can get!! There are other indications that he is actually pretty interested in music. Or maybe I am just seeing what I want to see…</p>

<p>I, too, do not envision a music major or career in S’s future. I am just wondering if there are opportunities in college to help him maintain his interest/skills. I have stopped nagging him about practices a long time ago (been there, done that, didn’t accomplish anything). It bothers me sometimes to see him putting so little effort into such a wonderful opportunity that costs so much money. (That’s when he said I can stop his lessons if I don’t want to spend the money). But when he does play the piano and produces such beautiful music that fills my heart with joy, how can I stop his lessons unless I am 100% broke?</p>

<p>I guess college may be a good time for S to stop lessons (unless he wants to quit earlier). For now, I know he still need the lessons and the recitals as motivators. The piano has no chance against the War of Warcrafts when S is just looking for something to do. <em>sign</em> </p>

<p>S does have more fun playing music he likes. He even suggested going out of our way to pick up the new sheet music while we were out and about (my jaws dropped). I could tell the new music that he picked is more difficult than what was assigned to him by the previous teacher. He does need to practice more with the new music! </p>

<p>Ctheflute, I wish my S will play the piano in his future dorm (in front of mouth gaping dorm-mates!). Currently, my S refuses to play in front of friends and relatives in the living room. That, in his opinion, is simply bragging by the parents. Yet he has no problem performing on a stage in a recital hall in front of strangers. Go figure.</p>

<p>I can’t get an answer from S as to which teacher he prefers. I take that to mean he isn’t crazy about both, but he can live with either. After reading the responses so far, I have decided that the previous teacher is out. That teacher did not allow S to pick his own music and has been “less warm” ever since S established his own practice schedule. S did blossom under this teacher in the initial years.</p>

<p>Actually, now that I think about it, our experience with the previous teacher did color our perception about what is a “good” piano student. S has always insisted that he will not practice 2-3 hours every day like “those other students”.</p>

<p>The suggestion to seek a relationship with the teacher is a good one. I have to figure out who is a “good” teacher given our logistical and financial restraints. That means either the current teacher or a new teacher.</p>

<p>I like the idea of learning to play a different type of music. My only concern is that it may be too time consuming for S to learn something totally different. I would explore this with S and let him decide. </p>

<p>I also like the idea of S learning to be an accompanist. I have this vague idea that a good pianist is not necessarily a good accompanist. Can anyone tell me how does one learn to be a good accompanist? Do you need special lessons or training for that?</p>

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<p>Good accompanists need to be able to sight read superbly, and really need to be excellent pianists themselves. They also have to be very flexible, have good sense of time and rhythm, and very good technical proficiency. The best way to improve technique is to continue study.</p>

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<p>Dreammom - our D has played the violin since she was 6. She didn’t want to major in it (she will be, but that’s another story - they tied the money to it) but wanted to continue playing. We knew from experience that music gets pushed to the side in college when things get busy, so we opted to look at minors and second majors mainly as a way of giving D a reason to not put it on a back burner. </p>

<p>We learned, along the way, that majors and minors at most schools get free weekly lessons, whereas kids doing it for the fun of it usually have to pay. At some schools the fee is very nominal, and some it is pretty high. That might be something you want to look at when you’re checking out college websites.</p>

<p>We also visited schools to meet the music teachers. That was extremely helpful. Even though she didn’t intend to major, D was interested in having a teacher she could stand. It was great for her to get the “free” evaluations and see the different personalities and teaching styles along the way.</p>

<p>By the way, since my kids played piano as a secondary instrument, an hour a day was the MAX they usually practiced, and it wasn’t unusual to miss days. High school kids just don’t often have enough time. Even with their main instruments, that was often all they could do. If your kid isn’t headed to a conservatory, I wouldn’t stress over the practice.</p>