Plagiarism--not political

Parent Cafe
161

@romanigypsyeyes I’m an artist who has had some experience with intellectual property issues, so I can empathize with Queen.

However, I do take exception to when people say “we don’t need your lawyer’s interpretation” as @dstark was saying to @awcntdb . There is room for discussion on all sides of the issue.

When people start saying things like they should go to a Trump owned restaurant and dine and ditch, it becomes clear to me that there is a lack of understanding between rule of law (ie awcntdb) and rule of man. You’re not hurting Trump.

162

“I think whenever a possible future first lady speaks at a convention there are bound to be similar themes in every first lady’s speech. They will talk about how they were raised, their values, their family, their support for their spouse, how they want to do what is good for the country, and do good for everyone of all races. These themes are bound to be common. There are only so many different ways to convey the same message. I think those common themes can sometimes translate to common sentences which can be used in the speech. I don’t think her use of certain common phrases was intentional. Sadly the focus has been on those few sentences instead of focusing on the themes she presented in her whole speech which I feel she presented quite well with confidence, class, and with good intention.”

These sentences weren’t themes they were copied almost verbatim.

Ms. Trump, Monday night:

“From a young age, my parents impressed on me the values that you work hard for what you want in life, that your word is your bond and you do what you say and keep your promise, that you treat people with respect. They taught and showed me values and morals in their daily lives. That is a lesson that I continue to pass along to our son. And we need to pass those lessons on to the many generations to follow. Because we want our children in this nation to know that the only limit to your achievements is the strength of your dreams and your willingness to work for them.”

Mrs. Obama, in her 2008 speech:

“Barack and I were raised with so many of the same values: that you work hard for what you want in life; that your word is your bond and you do what you say you’re going to do; that you treat people with dignity and respect, even if you don’t know them, and even if you don’t agree with them. And Barack and I set out to build lives guided by these values, and pass them on to the next generation. Because we want our children — and all children in this nation — to know that the only limit to the height of your achievements is the reach of your dreams and your willingness to work for them.”

Ms. Trump

“I was born in Slovenia, a small, beautiful and then-Communist country in Central Europe. My sister, Ines, who is an incredible woman and a friend, and I were raised by my wonderful parents. My elegant and hard-working mother, Amalija, introduced me to fashion and beauty. My father, Viktor, instilled in me a passion for business and travel. Their integrity, compassion and intelligence reflects to this day on me and for my love of family and America.”

Mrs. Obama, in 2008:

“And I come here as a daughter — raised on the South Side of Chicago by a father who was a blue-collar city worker and a mother who stayed at home with my brother and me. My mother’s love has always been a sustaining force for our family, and one of my greatest joys is seeing her integrity, her compassion and her intelligence reflected in my own daughters.”

If you click on the link the bolded in color lines are the copied ones.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/20/us/politics/melania-trump-speech.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=a-lede-package-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

163

Seriously, I don’t think anybody doubts that the words were lifted from the speech that Michelle Obama gave. The more interesting question is the motivation behind it.

I suggest that it was absolutely deliberate and consistent with Trump’s campaign thus far.

I’m amused that people think it was an accident, or that they think the people who did it were hoping nobody would notice. Lol really?

164

@MotherofDragons, I was joking about the steaks.

Do you want people using your stuff without permission? That’s stealing.

Who owns the music and who is managing the music is public information. It is public information that Queen and Sony say Trump is not authorized to use the music.

I was part of an investment group that was considering buying a musician’s future income. The musician was not as famous as Queen. :slight_smile:

165

I don’t see why her speech is being compared to a paper turned in for college. I don’t think they can be compared. Why are we using the measures for a college paper on a speech given by a women with the intention of a conveying a positive message to encourage the voters. If the intention is to talk about plagiarism in writing papers then maybe this speech shouldn’t not be used as a point of reference for how a paper is written.

If we are holding her accountable for this then we should hold every person in previous political speeches accountable for phrases they have used that have been taken from other speeches.

166

“I’m amused that people think it was an accident, or that they think the people who did it were hoping nobody would notice. Lol really?”

If I had a speech writer helping me and he suggested incorporating those paragraphs, I wouldn’t have any idea that it was used before and I probably saw the original speech. I avidly follow politics and still wouldn’t have remembered.

167

“But, if someone else owns the song in its catalog, Queen can condemn the use and say it is not personally authorized by them, by that is far different than claiming it is being used illegally and it was stolen or that prior permission is required.”

I’m not sure how many times we need to repeat that the campaign neither sought nor achieved permission from Sony. This isn’t a case of “it was authorized, but Brian May doesn’t like it, tough toodles.” This is a case of - it wasn’t authorized (rookie mistake), the owners said cut it out, and they still went ahead and did it. It speaks to character, awcntdb. It was arrogance. My guess is that you find that appealing in a candidate.

No double standard, BTw - I don’t think any professional campaign should use music they don’t have permission for.

168

@dstark I have had people “use my stuff” without permission. I also am related to THREE attorneys. It is insanely difficult to force people to pay for using your stuff without your permission after the fact. It often costs more in court fees to get them to pay than the original piece of art is worth.

I have free legal representation, and I still typically do not chase down people who steal both my written and visual work to seek compensation. Usually a cease and desist letter is about as good as it’s going to get. I had one plagarized article pulled from a magazine website when I could prove the author had used my original article. Ludicrously, it was the same website/magazine I had published with about a decade before (people are stupid). No compensation from that, although I’m fairly sure I burned that particular author thoroughly wrt the magazine using them again.

I’m sure Queen and Sony’s attorneys are at least as good as mine, and they’re as pragmatic about it. Which is why you keep hearing Queen being played…

169

@MotherofDragons,

I did not say Trump is not going to get away with what he is doing.

What you wrote is called stealing.

Trump is stealing. I hope Clinton has approval and or is paying for the music she uses at her convention.

I am sorry what you wrote happens to you.

170

“I don’t see why her speech is being compared to a paper turned in for college. I don’t think they can be compared.”

Plagiarism is no different if used in a paper or speech.

noun
1.
an act or instance of using or closely imitating the language and thoughts of another author without authorization and the representation of that author’s work as one’s own, as by not crediting the original author:
It is said that he plagiarized Thoreau’s plagiarism of a line written by Montaigne.
Synonyms: appropriation, infringement, piracy, counterfeiting; theft, borrowing, cribbing, passing off.
2.
a piece of writing or other work reflecting such unauthorized use or imitation:
“These two manuscripts are clearly plagiarisms,” the editor said, tossing them angrily on the floor.

171

Neil Young and Dee Snider are also upset with the campaign using their music. Trump settled with the photographers of the eagle that his campaign swiped. All this and the plagiarized speech shows a disturbing lack of respect for intellectual property.

172

"Have your lawyer fiire off a letter to the Trump campaign and tell them not to do it again…and they won’t. "

You haven’t been paying attention if you seriously think that Trump’s response to a letter from a lawyer is going to be “oh, ok, fellows, let’s start looking for another song.” He IGNORES rules. That’s his schtick that appeals to the powerless.

173

For what it’s worth, much of the music used by Clinton is Katy Perry’s who has given permission to Clinton. (I only know this because they were talking about it a few weeks ago… I guess it probably came up the last time someone complained about the Trump campaign’s use of music.)

If my student gave a speech using words that weren’t theirs without proper attribution, it would be the same as if they turned in a plagiarized paper.

174

Well, looky here! Sony released this statement:

“Sony/ATV Music Publishing has never been asked by Mr. Trump, the Trump campaign or the Trump Organization for permission to use ‘We are the Champions’ by Queen. On behalf of the band, we are frustrated by the repeated unauthorized use of the song after a previous request to desist, which has obviously been ignored by Mr. Trump and his campaign."

Repeated. Previous request to desist. From Sony.

Forget Queen’s wishes for a moment - the Trump Organization is not even doing the right thing by seeking the appropriate license. Aren’t some of you embarrassed to support this? Doesn’t this say anything about character and competence and respect for law?

175

" I wouldn’t have any idea that it was used before and I probably saw the original speech. I avidly follow politics and still wouldn’t have remembered."

Speeches are always run through the computerized program that is used to catch stuff like this. Every speechwriter knows this.

176

Lol. I guess in this instance there is only ONE way to say it. SMH…

177

Word has it she attended Trump University. :wink:

178

I realize that. If I was somebody who had my wife give a speech and something so obvious was plagiarized and humiliated my wife, I wouldn’t waste any time firing the guilty individual.

179

Am I the only one who’s amused by the fact that the plagiarized passages specifically deal with “hard work” and “integrity”?

Raclut, I’m not making fun of Melania for dropping out of college. I’m making fun of her (and the campaign) – in the context of a plagiarism discussion – for lying about that and claiming since way back that she has a degree in architecture.

180

I just think it’s funny that it’s Michelle’s speech. It’s not even - some obscure speech of some senator to the corn council or something.