<p>Thanks for your post, originaloog. My daughter will be attending OSU this fall and will be majoring in engineering. Her father and I are not happy about her decision, but it is her decision. She hopes to live in the Women in Engineering dorm, so I hope that will be a good start in making a large university a bit smaller.</p>
<p>SportsMama- The mega U’s have changed a lot since my day. UW also has a women in (science and) engineering dorm, and many other programs I wish they had back in the early 70’s. Investigate any large school and I bet you will find many such ways to make a big school more intimate. Another difference for your daughter- she may actually have women professors in her math/science/engineering classes- something women of my generation generally lacked. I saw doubling of women in the medical school classes each year around my era, engineering lags behind, but your daughter should enjoy having several women friends in her field, as I did in undergrad chemistry (although we had no women profs available, nor TA’s). Remember, large U’s are composed of many smaller entities, by having a major one fits into a much smaller world within the big one, with the advantage of not needing to conform to the mores of the smaller world if they are different than the typical students in their major. Think in terms of Venn diagrams- all the various intersections of interests et al available.</p>
<p>Don’t have a problem with big research universities, but I totally don’t agree with you on the difference (or no difference) between big and small classes. </p>
<p>From my experience as a TA last semester, I can say at least 5 major differences are there:</p>
<ol>
<li>Instructor’s enthusiasm. It’s kind of normal the professors also want a comfortable environment to work in, especially for those good researchers.</li>
<li>Class assignments. For a large class, you can NOT assign any significant homework and project which need a lot of resources and guidance.</li>
<li>Office hour effectiveness. This inevitably leads to bad interactions between ptofessors and students.</li>
<li>Grading and regrading. Just too much work to do for instructors and TAs if the class is too large. There goes the quality of evaluation of students’ performance.</li>
<li>When a class is too large, professors usually adjust their syllabi to cater to more general interest and broader range of background, which typically means water-downed course meterials.</li>
</ol>
<p>There may be other differences, but the above five are already significant enough IMO.</p>
<p>QW553-I disagree with all your points with the exception of #3.</p>
<p>Inspired teaching can take place in a class with 3 students and in a class of 300 students. The great Richard Feynman is but one example.</p>
<p>As long as the lecture/recitation ped is followed, there are ample instructors/TA to grade/review any assignments by the lecturer.</p>
<p>Grading and regrading are things that recitation instructor/TA’s do and why should it be more difficult for these people to grade 30 midterm exams than for a tenured professor to do the same thing in a 30 student class. And in almost all cases the lecture prof is willing to review regrading questions.</p>
<p>There is absolutely no reason to waterdown the syllabus in a lecture/recitation class or perhaps these courses at Harvard. Penn, Cornell, et al are watered down?</p>
<p>There’s a big difference with regard to section size. At Harvard, it’s capped at 18. I have read that at Berkeley, it’s capped at 25. TAs often lead two sections, so the difference becomes more substantial (36 vs. 50–at Harvard that would definitely mean another section).<br>
Originaloog ir right, though, that it does not matter if the 30 exams are graded by the TA or prof. It’s still the same load. And a TA with 25 or even 50 exams is better off (in terms of workload, not salary!) than the LAC prof I know who has two classes of 50+ students each and no TA to help him out.</p>
<p>I’m confused a little about what everyone is talking about when they refer to these ‘huge’ classes. I had huge classes in stuff like “Into to Anthropology” or “Intro to Macroeconomics”. I NEVER had classes with more than 30 or so students in the, what I would call, “real” classes. (Non survey/introduction-type classes.)</p>
<p>Who really cares if a survey class is big?</p>
<p>I know two girls – sisters – from a small city in Maine (population little over 7,000) happily now at Berkeley. They wanted a big school. They got one five times larger than the city they lived in!</p>
<p>So if the child is game – and if she’s outgoing & not shy – a big school shouldn’t be a problem. </p>
<p>I do, however second mathmom’s observation that housing in Berkeley is a problem. Even university housing can be on the dismal side, and once you’re out of the dorms, housing is difficult to find and expensive. </p>
<p>In the 7 years I lived in Berkeley I never once lived anywhere nice. And my standards for ‘nice’ in those years – pretty low.</p>
<p>Originaloog,</p>
<p>“Inspired teaching”, huh? Not all professors are actors/actress. Feynman is Feynman because not many people can be him. I agree every school has a few those kind of professors, but that is not the norm. At many schools, there are those teaching staff and faculty. They are good enough for some basics, but can not compare with the top researchers for understanding of the materials.</p>
<p>Also there are NOT ample TA/graders for advanced courses, nor enough resource for classes of hundreds. Being a TA is really the last choice for most Ph.D. students. Nobody wants to do it, especially for those good students. I never heard one TA only needs to handle 30 students. Of course there are graders, but it’s $10/hour, 4 submissions/hour/week for a typical rate. Not worth the time. Even you can find more TA/graders, the consistence of the grading is very hard to maintain. There still goes the quality of the evaluation. I am not talking about grading all the T/F or multiple choices. This is not high school any more. Meaningful assignments invovles a lot of reading, writing, hands-on sessions, coding, working on equipments.</p>
<p>It’s true you don’t have to waterdown the syllabus, but it happens everywhere.</p>
<p>QW , I am not sure what is your area of studies, but in the ones I am familiar with( music and math) graduate students line up for TA-ships. First of all, it pays the bills, second of all, you get a teaching experience required for a person who’s plans include a career in academia. And a person has to be a good student to become a TA ( at least it was a custom in the places where we lived and worked) .</p>
<p>I agree with Parabella. At Harvard, TAs (or rather TFs) usually have 2 sections, capped at 18 each–36 students altogether. Some do take 3 sections, though I believe they do no TFing the other semester so that they can concentrate on their research and writing. In the social sciences and humanities, they have no choice as it’s part of their funding package (Princeton provides full funding for 5 years, but most other grad programs combine full funding for a couple of years with teaching). The TFs lead sections (for which they must have done the readings in advance) attend lectures, correct response papers (many courses have weekly response papers) midterms, and exams, attend weekly TF meetings, devise questions, etc… Yes, it’s a lot of work. It’s also something they can list on their resumes going on the job market. It is considered a definite plus if an applicant can show evidence of teaching experience, including designing or helping design a course.</p>
<p>In math and sciences, there are undergraduate course assistants, whose jobs is to grade weekly problem sets. The rate last year was $16/hr. </p>
<p>The watered-down syllabus is not a function of the size of the class but of the diversity of the students. My S took a medium size class (30+) in which he was the only non-major. But there are larger classes (80+) in which all students are majors, and smaller ones in which students come from a variety of preparation and whose profs need therefore to consider their different strengths.</p>
<p>gadad, I went to University of Michigan and my son went to Williams (I’m having to adjust to the past tense as he just graduated. 
) so I have a good basis of comparison between very small and very large.</p>
<p>UMich was absolutely the wrong school for me at the time, though boy-o-boy would l like another shot at it now. As a shy 17 year old I was overwhelmed and unfocused. My classmates who excelled in the environment had personalities or social attachments that allowed them to get involved in academic or social support groups or already had clearly defined academic goals.</p>
<p>I think the “squeaky wheel” concept applies in spades at mega-U’s. If you are an assertive, outgoing, self-confident person you will get what you want and what you need. The resources are definitely there for the asking but first you have to ask, you have to seek, you have to probe, you have to keep coming back until you’re satisfied. You have to be resourceful and aggressive.</p>
<p>Socially, same situation. There are tons of activities to become involved in and sub-groups to join, but you have to seek them out and elbow your way in so being a natural extrovert or a confident joiner helps.</p>
<p>At the same time, a natural introvert seeks/needs solitude and that is much easier to find at a mega school. I loved that I could go to most classes anonymously. I would have felt claustraphobic at a small school. </p>
<p>Many of the professors were hugely entertaining. I used to pop in on other people’s classes between my own classes because with 200+ kids anybody could sit in and listen. </p>
<p>I also found that an intro course, whether astronomy or geology or botany, was taught with the assumption that some of those kids would be going on to get a PhD in the subject and the students really had to know the material at a nuts and bolts level.</p>
<p>per momrath:</p>
<p>"I think the “squeaky wheel” concept applies in spades at mega-U’s. If you are an assertive, outgoing, self-confident person you will get what you want and what you need. The resources are definitely there for the asking but first you have to ask, you have to seek, you have to probe, you have to keep coming back until you’re satisfied. You have to be resourceful and aggressive.</p>
<p>Socially, same situation. There are tons of activities to become involved in and sub-groups to join, but you have to seek them out and elbow your way in so being a natural extrovert or a confident joiner helps."</p>
<p>^^^This is what worries me about my daughter going to Ohio State. She is not assertive or outgoing (until she gets to know someone). As part of the honors program there are perks available, but I don’t know if she will take advantage of them. </p>
<p>wis75, I do appreciate your comments and hope that being part of Women in Engineering will help my daughter. I am trying to focus on the university being comprised of smaller parts, but my experience there many years ago probably has colored my feelings. </p>
<p>I have received mixed reviews on this, and don’t know whether she would be able to hand the rush process, but I have encouraged my daughter to look into joining a sorority. I was never a part of one, but have heard that people have lifelong friends from their sorority.</p>
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<p>My introverted daughter avoided applying to small colleges for just this reason. She was in a rather small IB program in high school and felt that she was living in a fishbowl. Anonymity is appealing for some introverts. She will find plenty of it at the college she will be attending (not quite mega – 13,000 undergrads).</p>
<p>Marian, I agree. My sons both attended a smaller high school and from the get-go, you’re type-casted. You NEVER lose that ‘reputation’- you carry it for 4 years!</p>
<p>At a larger school, a student can reinvent themselves, not only upon entrance but during. If you don’t feel comfortable in one group, you can move into another. People don’t “know” you from afar. Your reputation doesn’t precede you.</p>
<p>I disagree about having to be a squeaky wheel. At least from my experience, the first month or so of school, clubs/groups are begging for people to come see what they are all about.</p>
<p>Sports Mama, about the sorority thing. I’d tell daughter if she goes out for rush, it can be intimidating. Depends on the house. She’ll probably find at some, she is a wallflower. Others will be very friendly to her. So if she’s the shy type, you might want to ‘warn’ her- it’s not about her, it’s about them. Some of them truly are a little snobbish so be prepared and don’t take it personal. They all have their ‘personas’. Find the girls who are nice to her and forget about those who aren’t (isn’t that what we all do, girlfriends?). Also, at some campuses, the spring rush is more laid back than the fall rush. Usually in the spring, you just go to the house you are most interested in (usually you know someone in that house to begin with), instead of having to make the rounds at dozens of houses that aren’t interested in you to begin with. Again, depends on the campus- something to look into.</p>
<p>And don’t forget about other types of fraternities- engineering, premed, band, etc. Sometimes they are just as fun as the ‘social’ frats.</p>
<p>“Anonymity is appealing for some introverts. She will find plenty of it at the college she will be attending (not quite mega – 13,000 undergrads).”</p>
<p>I was big on anonymity when I was in college. I remember taking Geology 1, a huge 200+ person class that I took just because it interested in me, as it wouldn’t count toward any electrical engineering graduation requirements. I would sit pretty much in the middle of the stadium seating, 18 or so rows up, right in the middle. One day, while filing down to the exit after the class the professor pulled me aside and asked what about today’s lecture was perplexing. It seems he was judging how well his lecture was going on my facial expressions. Scared me to pieces. No, you aren’t as anonymous as you think.</p>
<p>I would be thrilled if my daughter was going to a school of 13,000. Five of the six schools she applied to had undergrad populations of 13,000-21,000 students. I think that’s a perfect size–big enough to offer a range of possibilities without seeming like a factory. Ohio State has about 50,000 students (all programs). AAGGHH!</p>
<p>I realize all I’ve done is whine about this on CC, and I appreciate having the opportunity to do so, as I am trying to put on a positive face in front of my daughter. (It is her choice, after all.) I think it will be wonderful if I can come back here in six months and tell everyone how wrong I was!!! </p>
<p>Btw, doubleplay, thanks for your input about sororities. From what I have read, rush takes place during winter quarter, so she will have time to find out about the different groups before she needs to do anything “official.” I do worry a little bit about the rejection thing (first it was colleges, then it will be sororities-lol), but I guess that’s part of life. She is very shy when she doesn’t know people, but once she does, she enjoys the kind of activities that sororities host such as dances and socials.</p>
<p>Sportsmama, Both my sons are now going to UF which is about the same size as Ohio State. Older son found many venues for socialization, starting in his dorm. They were hosting all sorts of get-to-know activities at the beginning, then he joined up with some premed organization and met some folks there, then he started going to the Christian Students events which featured bands and food, and of course he joined a frat. He’s also found a research lab that he’s volunteering in a few hours a week. Tell her to ‘reinvent’ herself when she goes to college. It’s a new beginning. She doesn’t have to be shy anymore, everyone else is in the same boat! You may be very surprised at the changes you see.</p>
<p>^^Exactly. I was somewhat of a shy follower (as opposed to leader) type in h.s When I left my tiny town and headed off to the big state u (it was really about 12,000 or so back then but felt enormous to me), I told myself that I would not be shy girl anymore and I wasn’t. </p>
<p>I was amazed at how much easier it was to be assertive and talk to people who were complete strangers rather than the kids you had known since kindergarten back home. </p>
<p>Don’t worry Sportsmama, she’ll fall right into it and be fine.</p>
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<p>My D spent the last 2 years in a very small program - around 135 in the whole school - 60 in her class by the time they graduated (down from 75ish at the beginning of junior year - high attrition rate). She is going to a big campus - @ 21,000! She looked at one private school who’s slogan was ‘where you are a name not a number’. I thought it sounded great - her response 'after the last two years I want to be a number not a name!"</p>
<p>She is in the honors program which I am hoping will give her a little more personal involvement with faculty. 3 of her 1st semester classes are in honors - I am very curious to see how she finds the other 2 classes which will have 150+ students - more than her entire HS had!</p>