<p>Our older D is a rising sophomore at a top Eastern university with about 6000 undergrads. It’s the size of institution with which my wife and I are most familiar. She says she loves being in a community that is intimate enough that she is always running into friends, but large enough that she can constantly meet new friends. My bias is that schools of this size help to battle anonymity, which I’ve always presumed to have only negative side effects.</p>
<p>Our younger D, a rising HS senior, has a similar resume and will look into some of the same schools as her sister did, but is intrigued by the idea of going across the country to California. I’m wondering if I can get comfortable with the idea of my small-town kid looking at Berkeley and UCLA - about 25,000 undergrads and 40,000 overall. In your opinion, are stereotypes about getting lost in the crowd valid or overblown? Are the shortfalls of being part of such a huge student body balanced by equally-desirable benefits?</p>
<p>In a very large school, there are likely to be a very wide array of courses and programs. To feel comfortable, your daughter would probably have to be a joiner who gets involved in organizations or groups linked to her academic interests. For some students, these sorts of institutions are great. For others, not so much.</p>
<p>My son is a student at the University of Maryland, which is on the small side of mega (25,000 students).</p>
<p>The university doesn’t seem overwhelming. </p>
<p>One thing that helps is that Maryland has a lot of honors and special interest programs for freshmen and sophomores, in which people who are in the same program live together in the same dorm and participate in some classes and/or activities with others in the program. I think this helps to make the campus seem smaller for new students. If there are similar opportunities available on the California campuses, your daughter might benefit from taking advantage of them.</p>
<p>Also, quite frankly, I think it helps if the mega-campus is the state university of your own state. The fact that there are 50 people from your high school there – and 50 more from your roommate’s high school – gives you an instant social circle, at least until you meet other people who have more in common with you than geography. But this wouldn’t help your daughter.</p>
<p>No question about it, Berkeley and UCLA are huge. Berkeley has a smaller campus with all the housing surrounding it. UCLA is like a city unto itself. We know lots of kids at both schools. Some initially had a harder time adjusting (especially if they were a big fish in a little pond during high school). Others jumped right in and found their own niche. I think the trick at any large school is to create your own smaller community. Its not about being outgoing, as we know many quiet types who attend the schools. My D got into both, but did not want to feel like one of the masses. She chose a small LAC with 5000 where she knows the President and his wife by first name…</p>
<p>My H and I both attended large state u’s in our state. S is now a rising Jr. at H’s alma mater. </p>
<p>I always liked that if you had questions/wanted help you could ask for it but if you wanted to be anonymous, that was easy to do too. </p>
<p>For some classes it was nice to be anonymous,lol. </p>
<p>Liked that most of my classes did not “take roll” like in high sch. giving you huge sense of both freedom and responsibility in decision making. </p>
<p>Big schools have more classes/specialized majors to choose from. </p>
<p>Big state u’s generally have a big athletic programs which really unite the whole school. Nothing more fun than a football Saturday at a big univ. or screaming for your team in packed basketball arena (especially if the game is on TV). </p>
<p>Big state u’s have lots of alumni all over the place that it’s nice to make connections with. Can’t tell you how many places we’ve been with H wearing a college sweatshirt that starts a conversation with a perfect stranger who has connections to the school. </p>
<p>H and I are both of the opinion that no matter whether your school is 5,000 or 50,000, you will make a core group of friends (dorm friends, major dept. friends) and that will be your “group”. Big or small, you’re not going to be friends with everyone at your school. </p>
<p>As long as you find a group to hang with you’ll be fine and won’t feel like a number because you are all part of the same big whole.
You would be surprised at how a big u. feels so much smaller after a short while there.</p>
<p>Agree w/ Marian that it is prob. easier at your home state big u.<br>
S likes seeing aquaintances from home area around campus. Others may not.</p>
<p>It’s also my impression that UCLA can guarantee housing for four years while Berkeley can only guarantee one. Being in a huge setting is one thing, but I’d think that commuting to a huge campus would be an isolating experience.</p>
<p>Like most things in life, the reality is a lot better than the stereotype, especially the stereotype painted by detractors.</p>
<p>To begin with, an awful lot of kids go to huge universities and do just fine. For two reasons: 1. Smart kids in general are flexible and can succeed at large or small schools. 2. Large schools are not composed of a single huge mass of kids. They are composed of a collection of much smaller communities, and one or more of these communities is bound to suit yout kid. Big schools offer basically everything.</p>
<p>The introductory courses do tend to be big, but I’ve always thought that the downsides of that have been way overstated. The way I see it is that a course can consist of either a lecture from the professor or a conversation with the professor. And in my experience, ANY course with over about 10 or 12 students automatically ceases to be a conversation and becomes a lecture. Once that has happened, it doesn’t seem significantly different to me whether I am listening to a lecture along with 25 other students or 250 other students. It’s pretty much the same experience. So I’ve never understood why someone considers a course at a small college with say 30 students to be somehow better than the same course at a University with say 150 students. It’s the same basic experience.</p>
<p>I’m a Cal alum (grad school). It’s my impression that UCB and UCLA are largely moot points for out-of-state undergraduate students. They do take some, but very few. Someone more current can check me, but I believe oos freshmen represent about 5% of the admittees and I believe that 5% includes internationals.</p>
<p>Not saying it’s impossible, but I don’t think it’s where her focus should be. If she’s interested in a mega-U outside of her state, she might want to focus on options more welcoming to out-of-state students.</p>
<p>you can see that in 2006 for UC Berkeley 7201 out of state students applied and 1194 were admitted – for an admit rate of 16.6% This compared to a rate of 25% for CA residents.</p>
<p>For UCLA there were 6211 out of state applicants and 1582 were admitted – for an admit rate of 25.5%. Which almost exactly the same as the admit rate for CA residents.</p>
<p>So the odds aren’t great for anybody, but the OOS students fare reasonably well.</p>
<p>My son graduated with a class of 100 from hs. He’s at a university with 50,000. He LOVES it. There are so many activities and groups to join, something for everyone. </p>
<p>The bad thing about a small school (judging from his smallish hs) is that if you don’t find your niche, you are SOL. The good thing about a big school is you can always MOVE ON. There are people there who are like YOU no matter what.</p>
<p>gadad,
Berkeley guarantees housing for two years. Off campus apartments are adjacent to the university in the city of Berkeley, so the “commute” is just a block or two or three. It’s not isolating at all since the vast majority of the 30,000 students live right off campus.</p>
<p>I have known a lot of Berkeley undergrads and can attest that it’s possible for the brightest and most motivated to fall through some cracks. That said, it has a lot to offer. If your child is totally on top of the game and understands that sometimes rules are meant to be broken, then it can be wonderful. Even so, I’d suggest checking in a little more often than you might if she attended a school that took more care of its undergrads.</p>
<p>A huge university is a conglomeration of smaller, intersecting communities – the kids who are on the same athletic team, the kids on the same floor of their dorm, the kids who work together on the school newspaper, etc. A kid gets involved in various activities, meets people, makes small clusters of friends – and it all seems kind of cozy. I attended a large UC as an undergrad and still am in touch with about a dozen men and women who were in my freshman dorm. I didn’t attend my college graduation, but I did attend the rather cozy graduation gathering for my department. </p>
<p>The only factor I think could make a very big difference is your daughter’s prospective or likely major. Academically, it can seem very impersonal if all the classes are huge – so I might want to avoid a school like Berkeley as a prospective bio major. I was on a first name basis with my department advisor when I was in college, but I gravitated toward one of the smaller departments in part because it did seem more personal.</p>
<p>I attended Ohio State so I know about mega campuses. BTW i absolutely loved my years there and received a top flight education in the process.</p>
<p>But I digress. The key in looking at large universities is to understand that they are broken down into small, more managable components. For instance, at OSU I was an engineering major and the College of Engineering enrolled about 5000 undergrads. I was in the Civil Engineering department and there were about 35 students in my class, the size of some LAC departments.</p>
<p>Most clubs had less than 40 members, like clubs at LAC’s with my department ASCE student chapter having about 25 actuve members.</p>
<p>Dorms the same thing. I lived in Stradley Hall a 12(?) story high rise but knew all the students on my floor reasonable well and some are friends to this day.</p>
<p>And where the rubber meets the road, academic life. Yep, those intro/first year classes are usually big lectures but they are supplemented by small recitation sections led by TA’s. While most pooh-pooh TA’s, I found that they were usually quite good at handling recitation sections in which students could ask questions about the lecture/readings, have classroom discussion about readings/homework assignments and discuss questions concerning papers/projects in progress. And as each year passed by the lecture/recitation ped yeilded to smaller classes led by tenured faculty. Few of my CE classes exceeded 20 students and by graduation I knew most of the department faculty very well.</p>
<p>So the key is to break down the mega university into its smaller component parts as find how you the student will best fit in.</p>
<p>Berkeley’s size in particular didn’t bother me, as the campus is pretty compact. I didn’t like the housing situation or the cost for OOS. I agree that a lecture is a lecture, though I’d set the bar at 40 or 50 rather than 30. I’d check what size smaller breakout sections are at the various bigger schools. I’ve had some great TAs in my day and none that were truly awful. If your interests happen to take you to one of the smaller departments that can be a big plus too.</p>
<p>^^So true. S’s university has 28,000 students but his Dept., one of the smallest only has 233 and his particular area within the dept. only has 69. His freshman year, he was his advsiors only freshman advisee.</p>
<p>I went to a large research university and all the positives cited are true. TheMom also went to large research for universities for both undergrad and grad. But we were blown away by some of the LAC’s our daughter was interested in. I think you can get an outstanding education at a research university but to get the same qualitative level I do think you’ll probably have to work harder at it. And I look at things like my D’s first-year research opportunities vs. what research opportunities are available to undergrads, let alone underclassmen, at most research U’s. </p>
<p>Note: TheMom has worked for more than 25 years at UCLA and we can compare the typical education there, as an example, versus the opportunities our daughter is getting, very easily.</p>
<p>The most compelling case for large research U’s in my opinion are where the student is majoring in a subject where extensive specialized laboratories are an issue or where a university has a particularly strong, outstanding depth in a department in which the student is interested in majoring. </p>
<p>Slicing the salami from the other direction, I know that I’d still be wary of LAC’s with small total enrollments, creating the “bubble” that some worry about. My own comfort level is probably around 1,600 students minimum.</p>
<p>You can compare a college to a city- consider the biggest ones, eg New York , Chicago and Los Angeles- each with many neighborhoods and other subsets of people and very different from each other. Likewise there are plenty of big cities…on down to small towns with all their characteristics. </p>
<p>You do not have to be a joiner to enjoy a large university- in fact it may be easier to not feel you have to join in with “everybody” since there will be plenty of others doing their own thing. I went to a big school and never did formal extracurriculars- I was there to study/get my degree and had fun with friends along the way. I do not see why some feel it is so important to join clubs, it was more important to me and my friends to have unstructured time. Others see college in a more social light and had a different experience.</p>
<p>Research projects are a part of the undergrad freshman Honors courses- then and now, and time is spent in the grad labs as a part of coursework in the large institutions.</p>
I’d check what size smaller breakout sections are at the various bigger schools. I’ve had some great TAs in my day and none that were truly awful. If your interests happen to take you to one of the smaller departments that can be a big plus too.</p>