Please help me help my son evaluate unranked schools

Parents Forum
1

<p>So here is the situation with one of the medium sized (10K+) schools my son is evaluating in the foundation (safety) category. The school has the relevant ABET, EHAC and CEPH accreditations, member of ASPH etc, but yet the graduation rates are horrible (to me). Rates are as follows: 19% 4-yr, 38% 5-yr and 44% 6-yr. Transfer is approx 20%. If the school has all the dot dot comma comma accreditations of a great school, why do you think the graduation rate is so low? What gives? Should this be a concern? On paper, everything else about the school seems fine to my son (actually he doesn’t care about the grad percents for foundation schools). He hasn’t visited this school yet. Any other recommendations on how to evaluate or filter these unranked schools is greatly appreciated.</p>

<p>Side bar question –If you had to choose, do you think it is more important to visit the foundation (safety) or the structure (match) schools? I will also add the explanation of why we use foundation and structure. ([AdmissionsAdvice.com</a> - How To Build A Realistic College List](<a href=“http://www.admissionsadvice.com/build_your_college_list]AdmissionsAdvice.com”>http://www.admissionsadvice.com/build_your_college_list)) My son was having a very hard time coming up with a list of safeties. He felt like one school was enough. (This may have something to do with the “one extra” syndrome I engrained in him all his life. One extra pencil, one extra notebook, one extra water bottle for sports, one extra tie, key etc  all in the name of “being safe than sorry”.) This viewpoint allowed him to look at safeties in a different light. He had the “ah ha” these schools are really important moment, and was suddenly coming up with a list for review. I say “hey, whatever works”, and thank goodness, this did. </p>

<p>Thanks in Advance</p>

2

<p>Your son’s safety schools should be ones where he has a sure acceptance AND where your family can pay the bills for him to attend. In my opinion, the MOST important schools for a student to choose are the safety schools. I suggest two, because in the end, it’s nice to have a choice. </p>

<p>How did you choose this current school? Was it based on information you received, or just chosen out of a hat?</p>

<p>In the vast majority of cases, at least one safety school would be a public university in your state. Most states have more than one public university and most offer engineering (from the accreditations you noted, it looks like that is the major you are looking for). If it were me, I would check those instate public universities.</p>

<p>Just curious…what do you mean by “unranked”?</p>

<p>Also, interesting term…foundation school…where does that come from?</p>

3

<p>Graduation rates can be low because of

  1. Location. Some kids romanticize about small rural colleges or destination locations only to absolutely hate it when they arrive. My oldest son lost a roommate after 2 weeks and the college loses about 30% of the class during and after the freshman year. Small town. Rural.
  2. Size. Some kids end up in colleges where there entire freshman class is smaller than their high school graduating class. Again, some kids like it. Some kids don’t. And vice versa. Kids at small schools might dream of the Big U and all that it holds only to find out they really do feel like a number.
  3. Natural attrition. Some kids can’t hack college and leave after freshman year.
  4. Change of majors. Some kids transfer out because they realize they want business, or architecture or some major the original college doesn’t even offer.
  5. Money. Some kids manage to get through a year or two financially but can’t afford it over the long haul.
  6. It was a safety. Some kids never intend to finish at the school they start. They go in planning to transfer.
  7. Weather. Some kids romanticize about going somewhere with a totally different climate only to realize they miss the snow, the sun, whatever they had before. </p>

<p>My kids filter was major, location, finances, social fit</p>

<p>I think it’s important to visit the safety…many, many kids end up at what starts to be a “safety” school. Love thy safety. Finally, plenty of kids don’t do the safety/match/reach route. My oldest did 4 safeties. My middle did only match and safety. Only my third had a reachy college where’s he currently waitlisted but has really no intention of changing it up this summer if he gets off. </p>

<p>And finally I paid no attention to graduation rates. All I cared about was that my sons were somewhere where they could thrive and could successfully graduate in 4-5 years. My oldest is 25 and no one really gives two hoots anymore where he graduated from.</p>

4

<p>^ Good advice.</p>

<p>Schools that admit a large percentage of students who are not really college-ready are likely to have graduation rates affected by that. Those students, as momofthreeboys says in her point 3, simply aren’t prepared (educationally and/or motivationally) to handle rigorous college work.</p>

<p>That does not mean, again reflecting what momofthreeboys said, that a student who is well-prepared and who applies himself or herself cannot get a first-rate education at these schools, and graduate in four years.</p>

<p>The highly selective schools have high graduation rates not primarily because they provide better educations or provide more student support, but because they admit only students whose high school academic records would predict that they will be successfil in college.</p>

5

<p>momofthree makes very good points… i know that my S2’s school appears to have a low graduation rate however if you dig deeper as a state public it’s has lower required stats for admission… but is known as a fairly rigorous school and very strong for sciences and health related programs. some of those accepted are just not prepared for the rigor. also if you look at the stats of kids admitted with higher gpa and test scores…the graduation rate jumped to over 80% graduated in the 4 years. Son is certainly getting a great education and has wonderful opportunities there…we didnt let the graduation rate scare us away, and S2 will graduate in 4 years.</p>

6

<p>Many schools with low graduation rates have students who simply can’t really afford not to be earning money and it’s hard to graduate on time when you are also trying to support yourself, or help support your family.</p>

<p>That said, I think graduation rates are worth considering, a school with a very low 4 year graduation rate means that your kid’s friends may not stick around. I think there are likely to be better choices for safeties. At least there were for my kids.</p>

7

<p>Some schools also suffer when people use them for a different purpose. One school in my state, IUPUI, has lower graduation rates because they also count the part-time and students that are not pursuing a degree. It is a school that often has transfers to IU Bloomington and Purdue. It has been, for many years, the defacto community college for kids that are not quite ready to go experience the flagship schools. It is also a great school for commuters and non-traditional schools.</p>

<p>It is also a great school. Academically the students are not shortchanged in honors programs, unique engineering programs, business, etc. The campus is working to make it more of a residential campus, but it will always be a great option for people in the city of Indianapolis. So, by all means, visit all schools and sit in classes in order to look beyond the numbers.</p>

8

<p>Stats aren’t as important as the reason for those stats. Perhaps there are many kids who can not afford to continue at the school for financial reasons, but perhaps there is great dissatisfaction with the teaching or administration. I agree that your son needs to find his own fit, but it certainly doesn’t hurt to try to dig into the details to find out why so many students either transfer or do not finish. A lot of research now may help reduce headaches in the future.</p>

9

<p>There are so many lists and rankings it can create a lot of confusion, do not rely on them.I would be concerned about low grad rates however.To me it represents a lack of cohesion or support to help students pursuing a 4 year degree finish it successfully in 4 years.</p>

10

<p>If he has some intended majors, he can look through the faculty rosters and course catalog to see if the department has offerings of interest for him. He may want to ask someone in the field to help evaluate the offerings.</p>

<p>Of course, if the major is one where major-specific accreditation is expected (e.g. ABET accreditation for engineering majors, at least the more traditional ones like chemical, civil, electrical, industrial, materials, mechanical, and nuclear; AACSB accreditation for business or accounting; NAAB accreditation for architecture), check for that accreditation.</p>

11

<p>ThThumper – This is a financial safety although out of state. It is priced comparatively to our instate schools. This school has his interests for major/s. Those being engineering and public health or health administration. He also is considering biochemistry. (My requirement is to select a school that has all the interests, that is accredited in all the interests and that is affordable. I am not wanting to deal with transferring “because the school doesn’t offer what I want issues”. So he went to ABET, CEPH, NAACLS, and ASCLS websites and found common schools listed on those sites as a starting point. Also, my state is part of the SREB and some of the majors meet the jump off point to another state.) So I guess that would be from multiple hats. The first safety he has, is in-state. And he really didn’t look at it like a safety. He has visited and likes the school. I had to explain to him that it fits the safety criteria. But I want him to have more than one safety. </p>

<p>If you click on the AdmissionsAdvice….above, it will take you to the explanation of foundation, structure, and roof.</p>

<p>By unranked, I mean according to US News….I know, I know….really?</p>

12

<p>For some students, the first choice school happens to be a safety… in which case it may be the only school on their application list. (However, it is important to avoid misjudging what is actually a safety – there are typically several sad stories on these forums of students getting shut out in April. This may be a motivation for having more than one safety in case a “safety” really is not a safety.)</p>

<p>For engineering, ABET accreditation sets a reasonably high lower bound on the rigor level of the degree program, so there should not be any bad ABET-accredited engineering degree programs (there could be “good” and “better” ones, though “better” for some students may be more fit related than anything else).</p>

<p>Note, however, that attrition rate out of engineering is high at less selective schools, because of the lower bound on the rigor level of the degree programs.</p>

<p>[ASEE.org</a> - ASEE - Publications - College Profiles - Search the Profiles](<a href=“http://profiles.asee.org/]ASEE.org”>http://profiles.asee.org/) can give you some idea of the enrollment by class standing at various schools with engineering. Note that class standing number can be skewed by both AP credit (which can cause frosh to be “sophomores” etc.) and transfer student intake (often a significant number at the junior level for public schools).</p>

13

<p>Care…my husband graduated from a school with a very low four year graduation rate in engineering…because MANY of the students (my husband included) were attending college part time while they were working full time. Most classes were late afternoon and evening classes to meet the needs of this student population. The university had engineering classes during the day as well for the traditional college students, but those part timers really skewed the 4 year graduation rate statistic!</p>

<p>Rankings, shmankings. If your kid already LIKES one safety and doesn’t even view it that way…then you are well on your way.</p>

<p>My DD applied (initially) to only three schools and ALL were considered safety schools given her stats. The fact of the matter…she really liked them. They met her college list criteria, and that was that. She graduated from one of those schools in 2010.</p>

<p>Foundation, structure, roof? Must be for folks who don’t like safety, match reach. A rose is a rose is a rose!</p>

14

<p>The cases you all presented make sense, but admittedly some invoke fear in me. Like all parents, I just want my kids to go to schools they will excel and mature in…in all areas. I am ok with them changing because of fit, #3 as Mom listed, or if for some unforeseen reason financial.</p>

<p>Last spring break and summer, we visited 15 schools. At the time he had one school on his radar. That was it. He has wanted to go there since elementary. The school is one of our state flagships. He didn’t even want to entertain other schools. Road Trip. We went rural, urban, suburban, big small colleges, LACs, and research universities. That was the goal. Exposure. Especially, since the flagship is not an easy one to get into for anyone. Instate or not. Of the 15, one turns out to be a safety to me (above the ACT 75th percentile and financially doable), the dream flagship (which is a reach because of admit rate), two med sized research universities (reaches because of admit rate), and brace yourself, 4 schools with 3/2 Eng programs. Of these 4, one is in-state public (reach), one is in-state private (match to my son) and the other two are out of state privates (matches to my son). Now my problem with these 4, besides the obvious, is how can they be true matches if they don’t have the engineering on-site? To my son, they have a means to engineering making them matches. Ugh. He really did like these schools and could see himself attending, heck I could as well. He insists that he would not have an issue leaving the school for what would be his senior year and attending somewhere else for the engineering. What I have noticed with these programs is that an awful lot of schools offer the 3/2 all to the same few engineering schools. It seems to me that going this route would be far more competitive than just applying undergrad directly. Also, I have read on CC that a lot of kids never end up doing it. Not to mention no real exposure to an eng department. Can’t even do a walk-by and peak in the door.</p>

<p>These last two road trips we are planning for this summer, I want to be to schools he really, really is considering. As advised, I think it should be to safeties first. Then if time permits, matches. </p>

<p>Psycho and Icarus, we will research more into the how-comes for this particular school. Something is underlying. But as we may find out, they may be “life issues” as opposed to poor academics. As mathmom, parent56 and MizzBee site.</p>

<p>Annasdad – when you stated: The highly selective schools have high graduation rates not primarily because they provide better educations or provide more student support, but because they admit only students whose high school academic records would predict that they will be successfil in college.</p>

<p>This probably hits the nail on the head on what I am missing. </p>

<p>Ucbalumnus – Thank you for the link. This is a key piece that should be utilized. My son is in AP and DE classes. Appreciate the heads-up on how they can skew.</p>

<p>Thumper – I now have that song a rose is still a rose ringing in my head :-)</p>

15

<p>A lot of good advice here. The risk in applying to schools that have few or no reviews about how they operate, is that there are some “dogs” (sorry to all canines here) out there in terms of schools. My experience has been with community colleges that were and may still be simply horrible. I know of some where signing up for courses, is one big lottery ticket. You are liable to get nothing, absolute zip in your courses schedule, since the school does not take any accountability for providing those courses. They offer them and IF they can get enough students, and IF they can get an instructor, and IF they can get the space, only then are the courses going to happen, and too often they don’t. I was horrified to see our local CC in the midwest operating that way. That’s one of the things that gives ccs bad names. My friend’s daughters enrolled in a cc with the same problem. </p>

<p>So when you don’t know the school at all, you have to visit and find out why those grad rates are so low and make sure it isn’t because the danged school isn’t offering the courses or not offering enough of them. That can be a really big hang up. A school, like IUPUI, is an example of where a student can get an excellent education with courses right up there with any, and yet the school does not make a lot of lists, and may have low grad rates. One needs to be able to differentiate. If you can find some students in the programs to talk to, email, text, whatever, and find out if the school offers the courses it would be valuable. </p>

<p>The other thing is whether or not the courses are up to par with what educational standards are. The accreditaions are valuable there, also looking at the texts used and talking to the professors as to how much of the text and subject matter is covered. When I visited a state school that doesn’t make top 50 in rankings, I checked those things out as well as talking to students, profs, grad students and the bookstore. The subject matter was well covered. The issue there is that the courses are open to more students, the selectivity of the school allows many students to try to take some difficult course loads,and many can’t handle them. When you have a school where the accepted students have a lower test score for its mid 50%, you are going to have more failures. Just a fact of life and the stats. The good news is that more kids are having that opportunity and the school/courses are holding onto the standards.</p>

16

<p>if you want to name the schools, perhaps someone will have some insight for the particular schools</p>

17

<p>ETSU is the one in question. And we are in VA</p>

18

<p>East Tennessee State University does not have engineering; it does have engineering technology (construction, electronics, manufacturing). Which type of major does he want to do (you mentioned engineering before)?</p>

<p>[Accredited</a> Programs details](<a href=“http://main.abet.org/aps/AccreditedProgramsDetails.aspx?OrganizationID=212]Accredited”>http://main.abet.org/aps/AccreditedProgramsDetails.aspx?OrganizationID=212)</p>

19

<p>ucba - biochem, bio, or biomed</p>

20

<p>ok so, no ETSU- Thanks for catching that. Makes it easier for later discussion. He just likes TN…</p>