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<p>For goodness’ sake, the heads of the Eastern and Western Churches excommunicated each other. The Eastern Church and the Western Church split from each other. It’s not as if one of them packed up its bindle and ran away from home.</p>
<p>I am incredibly sad about Benedict XVI’s retirement, but as I have prayed about it, I am sure that there was a compelling reason for it. He is a good man and an incredibly intelligent man.<br>
As a Catholic, I am confused and a little bit offended by some of the remarks made about Catholics and the Church in this thread. I guess when I clicked on it, I was expecting more discussion about the resignation.</p>
<p>Smokymtngirl, I think it’s probably true of both this Pope and the Church that you can find in them whatever you’re looking to find. Indeed, it’s probably true of all of us that there’s something to admire and something to deplore.</p>
<p>I do hope that this Pope’s decision to retire from the office will set a precedent for aging Popes in generations to come. J think that would be good for the Church.</p>
<p>I’m Catholic, and I’m offended by what the Catholic church has done to many peoples of many generations. So I am not offended by what other catholics say about their own religion.</p>
<p>I am not Catholic, and I would prefer not to have an opinion about the politics, doctrine and beliefs of the church. However, the Catholic church owns and runs hospitals and clinics, some of which are the only game in town in some towns across the nation. The Catholic church has inserted its beliefs into the relationship between non-Catholic women and their health care providers. The Catholic church has placed inserted itself into the middle of the rule of law in my country, in both healthcare and by obstructing justice for victims of pedophilia.</p>
<p>So please try to understand the point of view of nonCatholics who express negative opinions about the Catholic church. The Catholic church affects the lives of many, many nonCatholics.</p>
<p>I’m not trying to make this thread political, and I’m not trying to create tension within this thread. I appreciate very much the discussion by very learned people on this thread. My post above was simply to give a point of view of the non-Catholic. This quote from an opinion piece in the San Juan Islander, written by Monica Harrington expresses what I am trying to say:</p>
<p>"There is no question that the Catholic bishops believe that Catholic hospitals are religious institutions first and foremost. Last week, Cardinal Timothy Dolan, president of the U.S. Conference of Bishops said, “these ministries are integral to our church and worthy of the same exemption as our Catholic churches.”</p>
<p>“Last summer many islanders became alarmed after hearing that Seattle’s bishop had asked that PeaceHealth in Bellingham no longer do lab tests for Planned Parenthood patients, a move that would have put patients’ health and lives at risk, especially in the event of an ectopic pregnance where time is of the essence.”</p>
<p>“For many years, people trusted Catholic hospitals to provide compassionate care that was substantively the same as secular care. Instead, under an activist clergy, Catholic health care is increasingly diverging from the standard of care advocated by leading health care professionals and from evolving social norms.”</p>
<p>The opinion piece then refers to an article: “Conflicts in Care for Obstetric Complications in Catholic Hospitals”, recently published in the American Journal of Bioethic Primary Research, which goes into greater detail on the way hospitals use religion to restrict reproductive health care services.</p>
<p>I have to say the link to Catholic Answers was pretty darned funny. Talk about a one-sided view of history: it’s all about how the Orthodox really agree with Catholics but are pig-headed and refuse to get how right the Catholic position really is. From the Orthodox perspective, the actual issues are real and the Catholic Church is not only dead wrong but lives in a state of heresy. So for example, the Orthodox - particularly the version found in Russia, which is somewhat different* - believe the Catholic Church literally added words to the Nicene Creed. The evidence actually supports that version, but then I learned this from the patriarch of a Greek sect so I assume there is bias there. And the words have far more import than the Catholic Answers website glosses over. The meaning gets to the literal role of Jesus in worship, in the world, etc. </p>
<p>But then from my perspective, you’re all idolators anyway. (insert a smiley face) An old yiddish expression about the failure of an argument to persuade was “it didn’t climb up and it didn’t fly away.” </p>
<p>*But which considers themselves the actual heirs of the tradition of the true Church, with the old line “the 3rd Rome shall never fall”. That refers to the fall of Rome to the barbarians & then the fall of Constantinople. I find that stuff really humorous.</p>
<p>The problem of treatment has come to the fore in Ireland where a mother died because the hospital refused to abort a 16 week fetus that was going to die anyway. And get this: the mother and father were Indian, not Irish, not Catholic. As an aside, she was a dentist, so she was educated and knew what was happening. The hospital refused to abort the fetus while it was still alive and the mother died of blood poisoning. The hospital then hid the notes in which the couple made more than one request for a termination. </p>
<p>This case is now driving a re-examination of abortion in Ireland, but the main point is that the hospital was not required to do what it did under law but could have saved the woman. Abortion to save a life is legal in Ireland. They chose not to because of Catholic teaching not the law. That is what is driving the debate there now.</p>
<p>Regarding Catholic healthcare an outsider’s position seems to be
“These are not my values, do not subject me to them.” Why is that more valid than the Church’s position that “these are not our values and we will not violate them for you?”
Catholic hospitals are the only health care in some areas. In part because that is the mission of the Catholic Church,to serve the under served. Does that mean that the Church should abandon her beliefs because there is no one else to accommodate what the Church finds gravely immoral?
In many areas Catholic Social Services has gotten out of adoption, should they leave healthcare too?</p>
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Why didn’t they go to another hospital? Or to England? Or India? The matter went on for several days. And it’s not about what religion the parents are, it’s about what religion the hospital is.</p>
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<p>You’re kidding right?! This woman was DYING and your solution is “well just go to a different country!” Seriously?!</p>
<p>Sorry, but that’s an outrage. This woman died because people were “pro-life”. Oh the tragic irony.</p>
<p>Look, I truly don’t care what your beliefs are but the doctors let this woman die. They have blood on their hands because of the religious beliefs. Whatever you want to believe, their religious beliefs directly caused her death. THAT is not OK. Not from a doctor. Isn’t the first rule of medicine “do no harm”? IMO, if you want to be a doctor, you put the life of your patient above your religious beliefs. If you’re not willing to do that, find another career.</p>
<p>Romani I think it’s a valid question to ask why they didn’t go somewhere else. Personally, I think the hospital should have delivered the fetus, but I also think in a similar circumstance I would have tried to get to a different hospital once they said they were not going to do so. If you go to the store to buy milk and they don’t have any, do you just stay there or do you go elsewhere?</p>
<p>Surely, the purchase of dairy products is not an adequate analogy.</p>
<p>Ok, I’m totally in the wrong to even ask the question.</p>
<p>I think this thread has gotten way too far afield and should be shut down now.</p>
<p>We are pro-life and by god we are willing to let people die to prove it!</p>
<p>Ii think this thread has been rather civil and quite interesting.</p>
<p>I brought this thread in this direction, and it is fine if we drop this subject to avoid having the thread shut down, but isn’t it interesting that the moment a nonCatholic questions the way Catholic hospitals use religion to restrict legal, safe, standard care of nonCatholic patients who may be forced to use a Catholic hospital because it is the only one in the area, we are asked to stop questioning and shut down the thread?</p>
<p>In Catholic hospitals, religious doctrine can be more powerful than the judgements of physicians and the safety and preferences of the patients. </p>
<p>It is callous and meanspirited to suggest that a patient should be forced to seek care elsewhere, when the care she is seeking is the standard.</p>
<p>I just caught up with the thread.</p>
<p>Post#54:
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<p>Post #121
Catholics are taught that Christ recognizes the power of temptation and the co-existence of sinful people and people who strive to be good in the Church as shown by the Parable of Wheat and Weeds. When Christ instructed Peter to build His Church I dont think Christ expected His Church to be perfect. After all, when Jesus picked his 12 apostles, one of them betrayed him, one of them denied Him 3x and only St. John and Mother Mary were beside him during his crucifixion. </p>
<p>What bothers me most though is there seems to be a persistent attempt to shield priests from prosecution. Are we just supposed to turn a blind eye because these same priests are doing some other good acts? If I see my son push another child in the playground, do I just keep quiet because he was such a good boy yesterday sharing his toys with a friend? Of course not. A responsible mother would of course reprimand her son for the misbehavior. So I end with Haydens words:</p>
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<p>It is also irresponsible to not be aware of cultural/political restrictions in place in countries one visits. Personally, I’ve not yet visited any areas where women are treated as less than full citizens but instead have very stringent and unacceptable standards (based on my Western World view) placed upon them. If, in the future, such a visit becomes necessary or desirable - it will be up to ME to figure out how to prepare.</p>