Pope Benedict XVI Resignation

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<p>You do know, right, that there’s such a thing as the Hebrew Bible, as referred to in English both popularly and in academic writing to avoid the obviously non-neutral term “Old Testament”? (Of course, the Hebrew Bible isn’t exactly the same as the so-called Old Testament anyway, even leaving aside the entirely different meanings that Christianity decided to ascribe to it.) I don’t think the Catholic Church was responsible for the Hebrew Bible. And I thought that even the Protestant Bible was different from the Catholic Bible.</p>

<p>DonnaL-that was my understanding too-that much of the “Old” was derived from the HEBREW Torah (?). And now I’m even more confused than before, since for example-birth control-it didn’t exist as we know it before modern times, so where did the edict against that come from in Catholicism, and how come there are some female rabbis but no female Catholic priests, if the Hebrew doctrine predates the Catholic? </p>

<p>In any case, it’s too complex for a thread on CC so I’ll just stop-but this has all been helpful and more convincing than ever that I made the right choice for me years ago.</p>

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<p>No, it didn’t. Where are you getting this from?</p>

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<p>No, no “she” didn’t. “She” barely existed at the time that the New Testament canon was developed, and obviously, didn’t exist at all for the Old Testament’s creation. Worse, the choice of books was a contentious process that many early Christian organizations were involved in, and there was no easy agreement reached. And still isn’t, since not all bibles today include the same books.</p>

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<p>Please, do tell, since this is in fact an open question. I suppose you know something that the foremost religious scholars and historians have spent lifetimes researching?</p>

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<p>Or rather, everyone would have it, since the Catholic Church has nothing to do at all with the creation of any of the Bible, and terribly little to do with its acceptance.</p>

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<p>Actually, sseamom, Torah is only a part of the Hebrew Bible. The Hebrew Bible is known in Hebrew as the Tanakh, the word Tanakh being an acronym for the words *Torah<a href=“the%20Pentateuch:%20Genesis,%20Exodus,%20Leviticus,%20Numbers%20&%20Deuteronomy”>/I</a>, *Nevi’im<a href=“prophets”>/I</a> and *Ketuvim<a href=“writings–a%20kind%20of%20catch-all%20term%20for%20the%20other%20stuff,%20including%20history,%20such%20as%20I%20and%20II%20Chronicles;%20Psalms;%20wisdom%20literature,%20such%20as%20Proverbs%20and%20Ecclesiastes;%20other%20narratives,%20such%20as%20Ruth%20and%20Job%20and%20Esther”>/I</a>.</p>

<p>These, of course, are the English names of these books, many of which are derived from their Greek names. In many cases, the books’ Hebrew names are different.</p>

<p>And certainly, the Tanakh was compiled at least four centuries before the early Christian Church made up its mind whether to include the Jews’ scriptures in Christian scripture.</p>

<p>And I thought that even the Protestant Bible was different from the Catholic Bible</p>

<p>Yes, it is. Martin Luther took the Catholic Bible and removed about 7 books. But even he admitted that without the Catholic church, the Bible (meaning including the NT) would not exist. </p>

<p>lol…to the idea that the Catholic Church “barely existed” when the Canon was decided. Peter, was the first Pope. The Catholic Church is 2000 years old. The Catholic Church convened the Councils which decided which books would be included. </p>

<p>Who do you think those Bishops were? If you don’t think those Bishops were Catholic, then you need to read what they believed. The doctrines that they believed were the same Catholic doctrines that exist today…they believed that Holy Communion is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Once people read what those early doctors of the Church believed, there’s no room for debate. </p>

<p>There are only 4 Gospels because the Catholic Church determined that the others that were being considered were not divine-inspired (like the Gospel of Thomas, for instance).</p>

<p>It really isnt’ debatable about the Church’s role in regards to the Bible.</p>

<p>In those early days, however, the Church wasn’t very much like the current Catholic Church, nor was it particularly calling itself the Catholic Church. Personally, I rather doubt any of the apostles or their successors had much inkling what the Church would become. It spent the first couple of decades of its history seprarating itself from Judaism, and then the next couple of centuries as a small, underground religion. By the fourth century, of course, it was calling itself a catholic Church, but there wasn’t much need for the Church to call itself “the Catholic Church” until the rise of Protestantism. </p>

<p>I quite agree that the Roman Catholic Church traces its history back to the apostles and their successors; so do many other Christian denominations. Since I’m not Christian, I take no part in trying to decide who’s right. Certainly, the Church did codify the Christian canon by the late fourth or early fifth century of the Common Era, but whether you call that the work of the Catholic Church or of the early Christian Church probably depends on your personal religious leanings.</p>

<p>Regardless of when believers started using the word, “Catholic”…When you read what the early Church Fathers believed, the doctrines that they believed are the same ones that solely remain in the Catholic Church. </p>

<p>*Martin Luther himself admits in his Commentary on St. John (ch. 16), “we are obliged to yield many things to the papists [Catholics]–that they possess the word of God which we received from them, otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it.” *</p>

<p>Since there are other scientific alternative theories to the big bang theory, I’m wondering if cortana’s friends and others detest the people who would even dare to ponder those as well? (Or just the Catholic ones?) </p>

<p>So fun.</p>

<p>I quite agree that the Roman Catholic Church traces its history back to the apostles and their successors; so do many other Christian denominations. Since I’m not Christian, I take no part in trying to decide who’s right</p>

<p>All I can say is if people read what the early Church Fathers wrote, they’ll see that the teachings are Catholic. On other hand, don’t read what they wrote…because after doing so, too many say, “oh dang, now I have to become Catholic.” ;)</p>

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<p>Wow…that really was recent ;)</p>

<p>Wait a second. The Catholic Church is not almost 2000 years old. It claims to be the same church all along but that just isn’t true. The simplest example is that what is now the Orthodox Church split from what is now the Catholic Church with the “great schism” occurring in 1054. And that divide, which followed a series of disagreements, some major and some minor within the then existing “only” church, was over a huge issue, the role of Jesus, often noted as the “filioque”. There are entire libraries of books about this, but the gist is that the church we know as Catholic added the word “filioque” and thus the crucial idea that the Holy Spirit proceeds from Jesus as well as from God (or from the Son as well as the Father if you prefer). This phrase didn’t exist in the original Greek.</p>

<p>I mention this to point out that in the eyes of the eastern church the Catholic Church is a heretical branching of the original Church which they and only they maintain. They consider Catholicism to date back about 1000 years, not 2000. </p>

<p>As for the original Church, it didn’t really exist in a recognizable form until the creeds were formed at Ephesus and Nicaea. There were bishops, whatever that exactly meant from city to city, but no united church in the sense of control, of an agreed upon set of doctrines. For example, during the early centuries of Christianity the two largest groups were most likely those who believed in what would now be considered desperate heresies - of the kind which resulted in massive numbers of killings over the centuries. One view was that God and Jesus were one and the other was that God and Jesus were separate. The former view was essentially that Jesus was God, that Jesus was then an avatar or representation of God on earth and was not in fact human in the main ways. (This is a common heresy today; many people and a ton of Evangelical sects essentially deny the humanity of Jesus. I sometimes wonder if they’ve even heard of the Nicaean Creed.) The latter view is that Jesus was human and was, in essence, directed by God, even infused with God, but that he was not divine. </p>

<p>So to claim the Church actually goes all the way back ignores the rather obvious point that the creed - which is still the actual doctrine - is a compromise developed by a bunch of religious academics and priests over a long period of time. They united the two views and then vigorously stamped out - with extraordinary violence in the name of the Prince of Peace - all those who refused to go along. </p>

<p>It also ignores the other obvious point, that the original “church” was messianic in the sense of “this is the end of the world”, not sometime in the future but right now any day. We tend to ignore that part, perhaps because we find it hard to believe people actually believed that way. But it was a major recruitment tool for the early Christians: the world is going to end and if you convert to Christianity then you will have eternal life. It was a brilliant marketing move that made available to the common man what was formerly reserved for the most elite, for those “deified” by acts of the Senate or by holding the position of Emperor and so on. </p>

<p>And then, putting all that aside, one can’t really talk about a “church” until it became the official religion of the Roman Empire. Then you see the way Jesus was represented change into the figure we now see - and I’m not even going to talk about the iconoclast wars - as he became an imperial figure whose administration - with no irony - was run by Caesar. Thus the immense stories of imperial devotion, of hours spent in prayer - most nonsense made up by paid historians. And then we have to talk about imperial versus papal power, etc. but that takes days.</p>

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<p>You may think it’s amusing that I referred to 1858 as “recent,” but it actually is very recent in terms of Jewish history in general, and, specifically, in terms of the relationship between Jews and Christians (Catholic and otherwise).</p>

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<p>Thank you. I was going to mention that the Hebrew Bible = the Tanakh, but thought it might be too confusing. In any event, the word “Bible” does not necessarily = the Catholic Bible or any other Christian Bible. And the Catholic Bible would not exist if not for the Septuagint, which was a Jewish enterprise. And so on. Since I’m not a Christian, I don’t really care which church takes credit for the Christian Bible, but as Lergnom points out, the Orthodox Church could claim it just as easily as the Catholic Church. I remember enough of the Byzantine History course I took in college that the reference to the filioque definitely rang a bell! </p>

<p>PS: In case anyone doesn’t understand why a great many Jewish people don’t use the term “Old Testament,” it’s because the New Testament/Old Testament terminology refers to supersessionism – replacement theology – not to being newer vs. older in time, which is what I always assumed as a child.</p>

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<p>I know somebody who went to a Catholic school and still doesn’t fully believe in evolution. I was surprised to hear it was taught that way because that is not a view that I associate with Catholicism. It was not a great school, but it was in Massachusetts for what it’s worth. His school definitely taught literal creationism.</p>

<p>My friend in Utah, on the other hand…her town was mostly Mormon and her public school biology teacher basically told the class that they had to go over evolution because it’s required in the curriculum, but he personally believed it was all a bunch of junk anyway.</p>

<p>My mother grew up in a large Catholic family and has an aunt who is a very progressive nun. I feel kind of bad for my grandfather, actually, because he takes his religion very seriously and I think it deeply upsets him that none of his six children have stayed engaged with the church. Sometimes they go with him but that’s about making him feel good and giving him a ride. He was so horrified by my parents not baptizing me that he snuck me away to perform an emergency baptism in the bathroom sink!</p>

<p>^S came home in 5th grade and said “sister says babies who die without being baptized don’t go to heaven, they go to limbo”. I said “we don’t believe that”. Now the church has come out and said they are not so stuck on that idea after all.</p>

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<p>I know this is a minor point, but for the sake of accuracy: the Bible was indeed divided into chapters by a Catholic (the Archbishop of Canterbury) in the 13th c. However, the Hebrew scriptures were divided into verses by a rabbi in the 15th c., and the NT verses first appeared in the 16th c. in a Bible produced by the printer Robert Estienne. Neither of the latter was due to the church.</p>

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<p>That’s right, the Orthodox Church “split FROM” the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church didn’t “split from” the Eastern Orthodox Church. And, of course, some of those split off eastern churches have come back. </p>

<p>if you want to read more about the issue of Filioque
[Filioque</a> | Catholic Answers](<a href=“http://www.catholic.com/tracts/filioque]Filioque”>http://www.catholic.com/tracts/filioque)</p>

<p>As an aside…for those who use the word “Trinity”…try finding that word in the Bible. Of course the Catholic Church uses that word, and the teaching regarding the Holy Trinity is doctrine. But, you won’t find that word in the Bible.</p>

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<p>Couldn’t it be that those things aren’t allowed in rituals, because they are not allowed at all? I’m not a Christian and I haven’t studied the Bible, but that’s how I interpreted it. I could be wrong.</p>

<p>^S came home in 5th grade and said “sister says babies who die without being baptized don’t go to heaven, they go to limbo”. I said “we don’t believe that”. Now the church has come out and said they are not so stuck on that idea after all.</p>

<p>Limbo was never doctrine. Ever. It was always part of the open question amongst theologians about what happens to babies who die before Baptism. Never a doctrine.</p>

<p>There are never any new doctrines. Doctrines can get clarified, explained further, but they do not change.</p>

<p>Since the bible is a book that has certain scriptures put in,other left out, has been edited by men over centuries, has been translated, often incorrectly, has been manipulated to suit the times, whyno we pretend it’s this pure document? </p>

<p>It’s been 2000 years plus of editing, yet we are supposed to seeit as gods word ignoring the fact man has twisted and turned it</p>