Pope Benedict XVI Resignation

<p>Clearly, I have points of significant disagreement with the Church. Currently, the Church does some things that I think are outrageous. But when I denigrate the entire Church rather than criticizing those actions that I think deserve criticism, and especially if I do so in a way that is derisive, I am neglecting a lot of good that the Church does, and I am in the wrong.</p>

<p>The Church, the Bride of Christ, is both human and Divine. The human aspect is, well, human. The awful behavior by some should be of no surprise. Humans make all kind of decisions…some good, some neutral, and some trully appalling. Being a Catholic or being a Catholic priest is not some kind of seal of perfection - the human element of faults will still be glaring.</p>

<p>BTW…Popes go to Confession as well. See…they’re human, too. </p>

<p>I wanted to add to my response to Romani’s angst that the Church still considers her to be Catholic (a member of the Catholic Church). When you look at what the Church’s position is…that it is the Church founded by Jesus Christ who is God. Well, wouldn’t it make sense that once you’re “in the family”, you’re always in…prodigal son or not? Wasn’t that the message? If you return, your loving father will welcome you wth open arms?</p>

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Exactly, but they won’t hunt you down and drag you to mass or execute you if you don’t come. Just because they say there’s a place for you doesn’t mean you have to accept it.</p>

<p>Angst? I said I was uncomfortable, no need to escalate it. Really, idgaf what the church thinks about me or my membership.</p>

<p>*Hmm back when I was in sunday school that was what the priests taught and even berated a boy for asking ‘how do they know.’ but obviously things changed however I still know many catholics that doggedly deny evolution and the big bang and friends who detest such catholics for that reason. I didn’t say that the Catholic Church teaches or endorses creationism, simply meant that some catholics still hold that view and is such a cause for contempt by others.
Last edited by cortana431; Yesterday at 11:31 PM.
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<p>Sorry, but I don’t believe your story. You’re young, when you were attending Relig Ed classes, “the priests” were not teaching that (they weren’t even teaching that when I was a kid). You may have heard one priest say something, but that was his personal opinion, not the Church’s position.</p>

<p>My devout Catholic parents (both deceased) attended Catholic schools in the 1920’s, 30’s and 40s. They weren’t taught to believe that the world was made in six 24 hour periods. I attended Catholic schools in the 60’s and 70’s…I wasn’t taught literal creationism either. That’s why I don’t believe your story. </p>

<p>However, Catholics are free to believe in the literal translation of the creation story in the bible. They are not doctrinely held to believe that the world is billions of years old. It’s their choice. The Church doesn’t care because neither belief interferes with one’s salvation. </p>

<p>As for the “big bang theory”…Catholics aren’t expected to accept that, either. We don’t know how God “got things going”. If there was a Big Bang, then the power source was God. But, we don’t know if that’s how God set things in motion.</p>

<p>Sorry, but I don’t believe your story. I also attended Catholic schools and was taught that the world was literally created in seven days. Things may have changed since then but who are you to tell me what I was taught then? I also do not understand why it bothers you so much that people leave the church for whatever reason. I firmly believe I have the right to believe what I choose and belong to a church of my choosing and that the Catholic church has no right to tell me that I can’t. I have no more right to tell you that you must leave the church than you have to tell me I can’t.</p>

<p>I want to ask an honest question here. I left the church decades ago, so this wouldn’t apply to me personally, but since I’ve seen this as a recurring theme here, I truly want to understand: if the humans RUNNING the church are the ones also making mistakes and have deep failings such as the sexual abuse of young children, how does one separate the two?</p>

<p>The bishop of the Seattle archdiocese last year took a strong and very public stand against gay marriage-demanding that his congregations put out petitions that were part of a campaign against it (it had been made legal by the state legislature). Some did and some did not-I’m guessing that those on both sides were reacting in the HUMAN way to a HUMAN within the church hierarchy making decisions. </p>

<p>But…what else do we HUMANS have? If we are free to not follow the Bible literally (see creationism), if we’re free to ignore local decrees, if we’re free (I hope) to report the crimes of local official Catholics-then what exactly is left? The pope, his cardinals, his bishops, his priests, are all just human…if we don’t agree with THEM, and don’t wish to support THEM as failed humans, why continue going to church and saying we’re Catholics? Aren’t most all the rules and rituals Catholics follow created by HUMANS over the years? Or am I missing something here?</p>

<p>Mom2collegekids, I find there is an important difference between the assertion that the Church would welcome one back at any time and the aphorism that gets under my skin, “Once a Catholic, always a Catholic.” The latter denies me any ability to separate myself from the Church, as if it’s some kind of religious Hotel California, from which I can check out any time I like, but which I can never leave. I think that would create all kinds of free-will issues if it were true, but I also think it’s historically and legally inaccurate.</p>

<p>I think it’s more accurate to say, as you’ve said more recently, that the Church teaches that a person’s baptism secures for him or her a place in the Church for as long as he or she wants it, and guarantees that there will be a place there if he or she ever wants to return. It doesn’t mean that a person cannot abandon that place even if he wants to. The Church, then, is more of a Motel 6: We’ll leave the light on for ya’. At least, that’s how I understand it.</p>

<p>To that offer, I am perfectly happy to reply, “Thanks, that’s very generous of you, but I really don’t think it will be necessary.” But the assertion that I am still a Catholic whether I like it or not makes me seethe.</p>

<p>I want to ask an honest question here. I left the church decades ago, so this wouldn’t apply to me personally, but since I’ve seen this as a recurring theme here, I truly want to understand: if the humans RUNNING the church are the ones also making mistakes and have deep failings such as the sexual abuse of young children, how does one separate the two?</p>

<p>The doctrines do not have human origins, so they’re not subject to human frailings. That’s the difference. </p>

<p>Decisions on how to deal with abusers were “administrative decisions”…they don’t have anything to do with doctrine or Church teachings.</p>

<p>3bm: Don’t know why you wrote, “why it bothers you so much that people leave the church…” Where did I write anything in regards to that?</p>

<p>As for what you were taught while you were in Catholic schools, I sincerely doubt that you had 8+ religion teachers all singing the “world was created in 6 days” mantra. (the fact that you wrote that you were taught that the world was created in 7 days, strongly suggests that you really don’t remember the details of what you were taught).</p>

<p>*Quote:
If you return, your loving father will welcome you wth open arms?
*</p>

<p>Ugh…didn’t mean to put a ? at the end of that sentence.</p>

<p>I think it’s more accurate to say, as you’ve said more recently, that the Church teaches that a person’s baptism secures for him or her a place in the Church for as long as he or she wants it</p>

<p>That may give you comfort to put it that way…but it doesn’t make it “more accurate”. Once you’re in, you’re in. You can’t erase the indelible mark of your baptism and how that sacrament changed you. The Rite of Baptism is an outward sign of a profound change within you.</p>

<p>Evidently, it wasn’t terribly profound in my case.</p>

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<p>Did you mean for that to be as patronizing as it sounds to me, or have I misinterpreted your tone?</p>

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<p>I have asked you not to say that. I have told you I don’t like it, and tried to explain why. I have told you why I think it’s not a correct formulation of the Church’s position, too, and you haven’t had anything to say in response. I don’t know why you felt it necessary to come back and say it again. </p>

<p>And please don’t say, “Because it’s true.” You believe it to be true as an article of faith, but you have no way of demonstrating it’s true. If anything, I can make a greater claim to evidence that the effects on me of Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist and the Sacrament of Reconciliation were anything but indelible.</p>

<p>*Quote:
That may give you comfort to put it that way…</p>

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<p>Did you mean for that to be as patronizing as it sounds to me, or have I misinterpreted your tone?*</p>

<p>My point is that a person can find comfort in believing certain things, but that doesn’t make them true. </p>

<p>the bottom line is if what the Church teaches is true, and you’d find that out upon death, then what you thought otherwise while on earth would be irrelevant. Right? </p>

<p>Your belief that the Church teaches that baptism secures your place in the Church for as long as you’d like just isn’t what the Church teaches. Wishful thinking won’t change that. The Rite of Baptism changes a person and is irrevocable. </p>

<p>You’re free to believe whatever you like.</p>

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How incredibly generous of you. And yes, I mean that sarcastically. And you wonder what people have against Catholocism?</p>

<p>Who’s to say what you believe is right and what we believe is wrong besides your arrogance?</p>

<p>^^^</p>

<p>You’re still clinging to your claim that it bothers me when people leave the Church. None of my posts have said that. People can believe whatever they want. They don’t need anyone’s permission. I’m only explaining what the Church teaches. </p>

<p>If I wrote that the Muslim faith believes XYZ…that is what it teaches. If I make some claim that I don’t believe that, that won’t change what the Muslim faith teaches or believes. </p>

<p>As for you, I don’t believe that you’re accurately portraying what you were taught in Catholic schools. your claim that you were taught that the world was created in 7 days was so obviously wrong that it wasn’t hard to infer that you really don’t remember the details of what you were taught.</p>

<p>M2ck, how can you possibly know what someone was taught in school? </p>

<p>I wasn’t taught in my Catholic school that it was literally seven days but my great aunt, a Notre Dame nun, does believe in the literal interpretation. I’m sure when she taught she probably taught the literal seven days. </p>

<p>Not every Catholic has the exact same beliefs and trust me, not every Catholic school teaches exactly what the church or the pope or whatever believes.</p>

<p>Back on the original track of this thread…here’s an article by Sr. Joan Chittister: [Sister</a> Joan Chittister, OSB: Pope Benedict XVI’s Most Powerful Gift to the Church](<a href=“Pope Benedict XVI's Most Powerful Gift to the Church | HuffPost Religion”>Pope Benedict XVI's Most Powerful Gift to the Church | HuffPost Religion)</p>

<p>She writes: The fact that Benedict XVI has very humbly admitted the immensity of the present moment for the Church and decided to step out of it in favor of someone whose energies are fresher and, hopefully, more in touch with the pastoral problems of this transition from one era to another is, perhaps, the most powerful gift of this papacy. </p>

<p>It will be interesting to see if those fresher “energies” will have more conservative or more liberal sensibilities. My guess is the former, but we’ll see what the Holy Spirit has in mind!</p>

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<p>Probably a good idea.</p>

<p>Ok, not to sound stupid, but you said, “The doctrines do not have human origins, so they’re not subject to human frailings. That’s the difference.”</p>

<p>Can you give me an example of the doctrine and how it came into being? Was it in the Bible, or did a Pope somewhere along the way create it as he understood it to come from God?" Didn’t someone human have to interpret and write down these doctrines in the first place?</p>

<p>And, not to open a can of worms, but I was in Catholic school for 6 years and while I don’t recall being taught about a literal 7-day creation (hey, it was 40 years ago!), I do absolutely remember more than one teacher telling us that some misguided “scientist” made up evolution to explain what he did not understand he was seeing on his voyage around the world. I did not learn about evolution itself until I moved to public school in 7th grade. Believe what you will.</p>

<p>One of my professors - who died of aids, so he had a bias - wrote a book about how homosexuality became sinful. There are other books on the topic. And there is an irony: they trace much of the reason to the actions of priests and lesser clergy 1000 or so years ago, meaning the church then was trying to stamp out behavior that drove away adherents same as today. The saying is the more things change …</p>

<p>My point is that doctrines develop over time, that they aren’t fixed from some point in the past. Most “fundamentalists” of today would be surprised to learn how their movement developed in the 19thC because they firmly believe that what they think today is what was meant thousands of years ago. I find that amusing.</p>

<p>To give a specific, the fundamental prohibitions against homosexuality - and as disclosure, I’m not gay - from Levitticus are almost always ripped out of context. They occur in a specific context of Canaanite rituals, with the other two being ritual sex with animals and child sacrifice. We today have trouble believing these things can even be real and that makes taking the bit about sex between men more powerful because it survives. But we know child sacrifice was real. It’s fairly astounding but even sites like Carthage show significant evidence of large scale child sacrifice. (The new world is well documented because the Spanish saw it happen.) </p>

<p>The order is no child sacrifice, no gay sex, no sex with animals. The first and last are clearly references to ritual so it makes sense the middle one is too. In other words, what makes sense is the prohibition was against ritual gay sex. There would be 2 solid reasons for that. First of course is the Torah is clear about the nature of acceptable sacrifices, meaning animal slaughter only. Second, we know from the story of Sodom that male on male rape is bad so forced ritual sex is bad. (There really is no such statement about male rape of women.) The reasons for that are also clear: since men are referred to as the “sons of God” who bring forth life from the “daughters of the earth”, the image is that a man is like God in creating life from many sources. Don’t take that to mean more than what it exactly says; it is a metaphor. This is expressed in the long lists of who begat whom and in the Hebrew, now Jewish recitations of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob because life comes into you, flows through you and then continues, with the male “creating” that life through women. (I’m not being sexist; this is old male written stuff.) This even enacts in the Passover service because we are all the middle matzah, the one which sits in the middle of the pile of 3, so when it is broken and shared we all partake of this life now as a family and community. </p>

<p>Anyway, from a series of relatively simple pronouncements about Canaanite ritual practice no-no’s, it becomes possible to build an entire doctrine about God’s sexual intent and so on. People make doctrines. And as much as we believe that beliefs are constant they are not. I could give many examples from Judaism. An easy one is the continuing development of what is acceptable Kashrut. You’d think it would be just the rules as laid out but the largest kosher category now is Glatt. An example is that when the lungs are examined, older tradition is that any adhesion which can be flicked off is ok. The newer "fundamental’ belief is the lungs should not have an adhesion at all. Rules pile on rules all through Jewish belief. There is an idea - totally silly to me - about “fencing in the Torah” so new rules become added to the old and then more rules and each stage becomes a test of belief that this is God’s intent. All religions are just as weird.</p>

<p>I like to point out that Judah has sex with Tamar in the belief she’s a prostitute. So a patriarch can have sex with another woman outside of marriage. And that of course reflects the older idea that “adultery” was sex with a married woman because sex causes babies and other fathers wrecks inheritance and causes violence. </p>

<p>All this said, religions teach their version of truth and, almost always, try to keep adherents from realizing their version is just a version, that it has changed, that they are interpreting other religious beliefs through their lens, etc. That is why, for example, I know almost no Christians who actually know much about Judaism and vice versa.</p>

<p>No doubt there was a lot of bad catechesis out there in the 70s. Not every Catholic kid had access to great parochial schools, some of us endured after school CCD. There is no telling what was taught in the name of religious ed. </p>

<p>Which brings me back to Benedict XVI. One of the missions of the current Holy Father and JPII is the new evangelization. Which in part expresses a realization that many of the baptized feel they have no place in the Church, ( glaringly apparent in this thread )and a sincere desire to better express the Gospel and bring them back into the flock. . This pastoral care, now expressed in a program called Catholics Come Home, brought me back to the Church and that forever will be their legacy in my eyes.</p>

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<p>Not anymore, fortunately. It was true as recently as the mid-19th century, in 1858, when the Papal authorities kidnapped Edgardo Mortara – a six-year old Jewish boy whose Catholic nurse claimed she had given him an “emergency baptism” during an illness – and refused to return him to his parents, despite international protests, unless they agreed to convert to Catholicism, which they refused to do. (Not surprisingly, after many years of being raised in the Vatican, in part by the Pope himself, he became a priest.) This was just the most recent famous example of something that used to happen all the time over many centuries, and was one of the events that led to the foundation of the Alliance Israelite Universelle. I see what happened as unforgivable, and no different morally from the way Native American children used to be taken from their families and given to white parents.</p>

<p>*Ok, not to sound stupid, but you said, “The doctrines do not have human origins, so they’re not subject to human frailings. That’s the difference.”</p>

<p>Can you give me an example of the doctrine and how it came into being? Was it in the Bible, or did a Pope somewhere along the way create it as he understood it to come from God?" Didn’t someone human have to interpret and write down these doctrines in the first place?*</p>

<p>Was it in the Bible? It’s interesting that you should ask that. The Bible, as you know it, came from the Catholic Church. She decided which books would be included. Who do you think put together the Bible? Who do you think determined the chapter and verse notations? Who do you think decided that their are only four Gospels…written by Matthew Mark Luke and John. the Bible didn’t fall out of the sky. No one would have the Bible if it weren’t for the Catholic Church. </p>

<p>That said, all Doctrines have existed since the death of the last apostle. There have been no new Doctrines since the death of St. John…believed to be the last surviving apostle.</p>