“So for the average students and parents” - I would like to make a tiny correction here. “The average” pre-helth student is NOT an average student by far. The lowest college GPA that pre-med (do not know about other pre-health) can afford is 3.7 That makes an “average” pre-med having college GPA about 3.85. I do not call college student with the GPA=3.85 an “average student”, unless you mean something else by “average student”. The college student with the GPA=3.85 is a top caliber college student.
“average students” is more of generic meaning. For example, I’d think most (if not all) Ivies’ freshmans are straight-A students in their high schools, how can one survive as the 100+ med school applicants out of those 400+ students in organic chem classes? Remember the 300 who didn’t make it are straight-A high-achieving super-smart kids in high schools.
Another point - if we (parents) don’t expect a high school counselor to get every kid into Ivies, why would we expect a pre-health advisor to get every pre-med freshman into a qualified med school applicant? I’ve been to the pre-health meeting for freshman (as parent) and the impression I got is - we’ll talk until you pass those organic chem classes, which they know with 100% certainty that many of you (more than half) will no longer come to the pre-health meeting.
Hmmn, very interesting question and request. We approached from this from a rather different approach. My wife is a physician and has done more than a few fellowships, and I guess we utilized the “former professional athlete” model (made up term). In short, having already lived the career path (M.D.) of our oldest D, we basically, said she should explore the great variety of careers that were available to her, and even in some instances, dissuaded her because of the great amount of time that is sacrificed in pursuit of this goal.
This laissez faire approach, actually lended to her becoming even more interested in becoming a doctor. (kids want what they can’t have–lol). But, I think, her ability to see things up close, but also to see how much their mom enjoyed her career as a doctor, was a very compelling factor. I think, as well, is that she is now in the stage of her life, where she works sort of a fireman’s schedule, 7 nights in a row, followed 8-10 nights off, and then all over again.( she is an intensivist and runs a CC unit at night) Provided some light at the end of the proverbial tunnel…and that their could be flexibility and freedom built into her career–albeit after 11 years of education post-college.
I guess, our biggest fears is that she would not explore other career options are not become interested in other topics…
OP, perhaps this is more what you’re looking for? (Because super students who have it all together are going to get in anyway and don’t need help. . .)
IMO, the student has to maintain focus on the goal of “getting in” all four years. That often means sacrificing fun ECs and social life for grades.
Strategy can be crucial–dropping classes if necessary, choosing the “right” profs, changing advisors, etc. If the student (my D, for example) doesn’t have the preparation/work ethic/willpower/drive/time management/strategic planning skills, etc. to make every single decision (Should I go to this party/dance or stay home and study? Should I quit a sport I love? Should I say no to that volunteer opportunity? Turn down that date?) based on that “4.0 goal,” he/she may end up with a weak GPA. A 3.4 is not going to cut it much better than a 2.5.
I think having the right friends/peers/study groups can help. Some kids (not the super students who don’t need help) are just getting adjusted freshman year. They need to focus from day one. So anything the advisors can do to facilitate that focus might be useful. Sharing history of previous students/applicants, stats, success/failure from that particular college could help students be more realistic. Most people do not really want to go public with “failure,” but that is probably the most important info.–Why didn’t this applicant get in? What were the weaknesses in his/her application? What could have been done differently for better results? How can current students avoid making the same mistakes as “Applicant X”?
I was never worrying about it as a parent. D would make her decisions and live with the results. I could see she was stressed about grades/exams and unhappy with results at times, but that was her business.
There is really no action parents can take besides asking students how they are doing and what their grades are or telling them to “work harder.” Many kids have the intelligence, but fewer kids have everything else it takes. Some just don’t want it badly enough to do whatever it takes to get in. Some were meant to do something else. Some realize this earlier than others (D saw many pre-health students quit after freshman year. By senior year about 25% of the original group were actually applying to medical/dental school.)
D has a biology degree/French minor. She did not get into dental school. All of her pre-health classmates are in med school. She is now in art school. She is happy, I’m happy.
Looking back, D should’ve changed advisors. Her advisor had a bad reputation at the school, yet D thought she could “win her over” and worried that the advisor would feel insulted if she changed!? D was naive and not looking out for #1, not keeping final goal in mind. Overall, the pre-health program/other advisors seemed OK. But even the best advisor cannot turn B’s into A’s. Or change bad luck to good. Bottom line, D needed more studying and less socializing/ECs. She needed more work and less fun, but that is not what she chose at the time. Moved on now.
Thanks all for your very thoughtful and thorough responses. My experiences have been exclusively advising pre-health students at large public institutions. I have gotten some personal insight into small, elite private colleges, and I see the support system there seems to be much better for students and, as someone else stated earlier, harder for a student to fall through the cracks (which is one reason why they sent their student there).
The thought that is currently driving me is that there has to be a better way then this often random, very Darwinian way of helping motivated students prepare for health professions (such as medical school, pharmacy, nursing, etc…). And taking a step back, there has to be a better way we can help ANY student at a large public get the most out of their colIege experience (whether that takes them to med school or not). Just graduating isn’t good enough anymore, as if you aren’t prepared for the next step (grad school or the job market), why did the students just spend all the time and money? I know, much of this is on the student themselves and their motivation. But, speaking as an insider, a LOT of it is on the system that the university establishes to get students in and out. And right now the system is set up to get your students in, retain them, and graduate them, and hopefully they have a great experience. Basically, instead of a maximum experience and challenging students, the bar is set at the minimum, and decreasingly challenging the students (because that is too hard and the students don’t like it).
A recent Gallup survey results of if college prepared them for life, only 3 PERCENT of students thought the college did all it should. As a whole, only about 25% of students were satisfied with each area of measurement.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/182306/big-six-college-experiences-linked-life-preparedness.aspx?utm_source=position1&utm_medium=related&utm_campaign=tiles
I know many of the participants here have been of students who have successfully been admitted, but I’m sure you all know of other students who made it through college but didn’t really get much out of it. Any thoughts/comments on this?
Frankly, anyone who won’t have access to premed advisors at their former colleges can find out a WHOLE bunch of info here on the premed forum
so many applicants are non-trads these days…
Basic advising info:
Find out what your LizzieM score is (this will change with the new MCAT. And don’t trust the LizzieM score for OOS publics.
Work on your personal statement, have it proofread, etc. Work on any other essays that you know will be needed.
Keep a Word doc of all of your medically related ECs, research, shadowing, etc.
Your app list should contain: All med schools in your home state, many privates that are appropriate for your stats, and a few OOS publics that might accept you (maybe you have a tie to that state).
Apply to 15-25+ med schools.
Line up your Recommenders EARLY (like by Jan of app year) and give them a deadline, and then politely send reminders.
Take the MCAT early early enough (no later than April of the app year)
Submit your app no later than mid July (do it even earlier if you’re from Calif or some other difficult med school entry state or if your app is borderline). Frankly, I think the app should go in by mid June if possible.
These are just off the top of my head…others can chime in with more.
I agree with everything above, except for the 15-25 application number? That seems like an enormous number–but maybe the sample size I’m looking at is too small; my wife, daughter and niece. Now, my wife is not really that applicable, being she is over 20 years out. My daughter is just six years out and applied to 7 schools (admitted to 5) and my niece, in her 3rd year, applied to 7-8 (admitted to 4). So, as with most things, perhaps the more relevant info might be your personal scores/GPA and which schools do you have an interest? But, plus 20 schools is a rather large number…
7-8 might be Ok if your state has multiple medical schools with a strong in-state bias. For those who live in states with a single med school or none at all, or who live in states which are extremely competitive (CA, CT, MA, etc), and need to look OOS, 7-8 won’t be enough.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321466/data/factstable5.pdf
15-25 sounds about right for a student may have a ding or two on his/her record, or may simply be cookie cutter (average stats, average ECs.)
But more than 25 is unwieldy and it’s exhausting write all those secondaries.
Most CA applicants (70% I believe) go out of state to medical school. It is that competitive.
OP: have your kid read Student Doctor Forum. It has lots of good advice from pre-meds, medical students and admissions people.
I did not have sleepless nights worrying about DS freshman year. He knew what the pre-requestites were if he wanted to go to med school, they had a pre-med advising department at his LAC. I think the most helpful thing we did for him was to send him to an LAC where his “weeder” classes had thirty kids instead of 300 and just didn’t have that cutthroat feel. He might have been fine in another setting, but I think this helped make it less stressful. DS is an MSTP program (MD/PhD) and has finished the first two years, Step 1 and is currently working on his Ph.D. Since there is less advice out there for MD/Ph.D. candidates, he had to be more pro-active about figuring out what was needed to be a good candidate.
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I agree with everything above, except for the 15-25 application number? That seems like an enormous number--but maybe the sample size I'm looking at is too small; my wife, daughter and niece. Now, my wife is not really that applicable, being she is over 20 years out. My daughter is just six years out and applied to 7 schools (admitted to 5) and my niece, in her 3rd year, applied to 7-8 (admitted to 4).
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lol
My own son only completed 6 apps, but we live in a state with a instate bias for those with med school worthy stats. But everyone isn’t that lucky.
There are states (like Calif) that have an insane number of applicants.
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Most CA applicants (70% I believe) go out of state to medical school. It is that competitive.
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And half of the CA applicants don’t get any acceptances at all.
I meant to include the link for the premed forum here on CC
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/
Re #14 post bac pre med programs
Don’t such programs exist because many medical schools look down on taking pre med courses at community colleges, which offer most except upper division biochemistry?
Yes, they do cost more than completing most of the remaining pre med courses at community colleges and then taking the upper division course at a four year.
@boolahi I think your family may be URM? If so, then their admissions situations could be very different.
Yes, indeed female and URM, but I will say they also scored on the MCAT between 33-35 between the three of them–(I gave the equivalent percentile group from my wife since it’s been a while) coupled with GPAs that were all 3.7 and above in the sciences–my point being, is that I am pretty sure they would have got accepted, at some places, regardless.
^^^
Oh yes they were qualified regardless. It’s just that qualified URMs applying to med schools can have a shorter list because many med schools will absolutely want them.
If they hadn’t been URMs, even with those stats, if they had only applied to 6-8 med schools as Calif residents, there would have been a good chance that they wouldn’t have had any acceptances.
It’s just that crazy for Calif applicants.
@mom2collegekids I agree with you, qualified female URM applicants are a commodity. That said, oldest D actually graduated from UCSF as an OOS admitee.
“average students” is more of generic meaning. For example, I’d think most (if not all) Ivies’ freshmans are straight-A students in their high schools, how can one survive as the 100+ med school applicants out of those 400+ students in organic chem classes? Remember the 300 who didn’t make it are straight-A high-achieving super-smart kids in high schools."
- I never understood the reason for going to Ivy’s in case of pre-health. Why spend money on UG? However, if a kid can only see herself at Ivy’s without much of any solid reason, why not? But why Ivy’s are mentioned here and what the name of the college has to do with pre-health? I am lost here. In regard to pre-helth being HS valedictorians many of whom will not survive on the initial pre-health track, I can totally agree with this point based solely on D’s experience though. Yes, good number of HS valedictorian fell out of pre-med track after very first Bio class in the first semester of freshman year. No Ivy, just plain in-state public. There are many reasons for it and as reaons are different from kid to kid, it should not make parents worry though. Many simply were forced to consider pre-med by parents and profs. would tell you, that the goal of this group is first and formost to prove their parents wrong, to prove to them that pre-med is not for them. Here, I tried, did not work out - this type of phylosophy. there is another group that honestly did not realize that academic gap between HS and college (again, forget Ivy, any college) is huge and great adjustment is needed. My D. was talking about it a lot. She was shocked by this gap after graduating from the #2 private HS in our state. She did not expect that at all, neither most around her. There many other reasons. But it does not mean that your kid belong to any of these groups. Many survive, they notched up the efforts, they seek help at the slightest doubt in their understanding, they do not care what others think, they only care about end result.
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That said, oldest D actually graduated from UCSF as an OOS admitee.
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That doesn’t surprise me. UCSF SOM operates its admissions almost like a private.
Hmmn, you might be on to something, as the other schools she was admitted to were all private (JHU, Penn, Vandy and U of C).