Pre-Med at Georgetown, Notre Dame, and Michigan

College Search & Lists
21

“As long as all are affordable, I think I would choose ND. I’ve heard some negative things about being premed at G’town. Are you instate for UMich? If not, not really worth $50k+ as an OOS premed there, either.”

“I’m sure that Umich is fine for premed, but if you’re full pay as an OOS premed, I don’t see any real benefit of going there.”

mom2collegekids, are you suggesting that it is fine to pay $70k to attend Georgetown or Notre Dame, but it is not fine to pay $63k to attend Michigan (or UCLA for that matter)?

“Michigan has a staff of just 4 people advising close 800 pre-med seniors. Can you imagine?”

Where did you get the 800 seniors figure? Last year, 800 Michigan seniors AND alumni applied to Medical school. Of those, roughly half were seniors who used campus advising resources, while the other half were alumni who did not. Secondly, we are talking about college seniors, not high school seniors, right? College seniors really need little guidance when it comes to graduate school admissions. Their own academic advisors (every single Michigan student is assigned a faculty advisor in their chosen major from the day they set foot on campus) generally do a great job helping them navigate through college their first year or two, but generally, come junior year, most college students are, or should be at any rate, fairly independent and capable to gather relevant details about graduate school admissions.

“ND is one of premier schools for undergrads. The other two are not.”

Interesting point of view TurnerT. How did you come up with that? If Notre Dame is indeed a premier school for undergrads, most assuredly, Georgetown and Michigan are as well. I would certainly say that as far as academe and corporate America are concerned, all three universities are considered “premier”.

streetking18, I must disagree with the advice you are being given above. Do not overlook Michigan as others seem to suggest. It offers opportunities worth exploring, such as undergraduate research opportunities, pairing freshmen with faculty on a 1 on 1 or 2 on 1 basis in a field of interest, internships at one of the largest and most respected medical hospitals in the country and access to a top rated medical school that actually gives priority to its own undergraduate applicants.

22

Have you visited each school? If so, what was your impression of each?

When you mentioned skipping the MCAT if you went to G’town, do you mean the option of applying to its med school after soph year? Is that an option for any G’town premeds to try or ??

@NASA2014 Are you saying that one of the three has grading inflation? Whiich one?

23

@Alexandre thank you and don’t worry I’m not going to dismiss michigan just because of some comments on here.

@mom2collegekids I have visited georgetown and notre dame and could see myself at both places despite their very different experiences

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@streetking18 The question is one of value and resources per student. Don’t for a minute think the resources per student at Michigan are anywhere near Notre Dame or Georgetown. This is why paying OOS tuition is not economically sound.

Is Michigan worth as much as 3 times the cost of TCNJ or Rutgers Honors, which both have 7 year programs with RWJ?

Do your folks mind subsidizing the tuition of Michigan residents?

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“The question is one of value and resources per student. Don’t for a minute think the resources per student at Michigan are anywhere near Notre Dame or Georgetown. This is why paying OOS tuition is not economically sound.”

How do you figure? Can you prove that Georgetown and Notre Dame have more resources per student than Michigan? All evidence is to the contrary.

26

Pick any metric or ratio you want. Also keep in mind ND has about 8,000 undergrads and faculty of 1,200 whereas In Michigan has 30,000 undergrads with a faculty of 2600 and 5 times as many grad students.

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Don’t for a minute think the resources per student at Michigan are anywhere near Notre Dame or Georgetown. This is why paying OOS tuition is not economically sound.


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I completely agree. If the student here were instate or received merit to bring cost down, then it could be justified. But, the numbers aren’t good, particularly for applicants to advsors.

When it would come to premed advising, particularly with an OOS student, he’d get better help at a private. With only 4 advisers at UMich, he’d likely only get “large group” advising, and I can’t even imagine how hard it would be to get a TIMELY Committee Interview.

Certainly, UMich is a first-rate school, but when dealing with OOS premeds, it’s a different situation.

I wish I could remember the words that I heard two (yes, a small number) of premeds at Gtown use to describe their intense experience. Their words weren’t negative about the quality of the school, but the atmosphere of intensity.

28

The quality of an undergraduate education is not quantifiable TurnerT. There are many important intangible variables to consider. Suffice it to say, when you factor in such things as state funding, economics of scale, redundancies etc…, Michigan, Notre Dame and Georgetown are all excellent in their own way. I do not see why it is necessary to insist that Notre Dame is vastly superior to Michigan. I do not see the point of bashing any of the institutions that streetking is currently exploring. I just hope he explores all three thoroughly and decides based on best fit.

29

At liberal arts colleges, the top ones anyway, its almost like having a personal assistant. The advising departments have a staff of 3 or 4 for 30 - 40 students going to medical, dental or veterinary school each year.

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@mom2collegekids referring to the last thing you said, I know that premed will be an intense academic experience anywhere. But I definitely don’t want to be in a cutthroat environment is that the sense you got?

31

It is not a question of being cutthroat, it is a question of resource levels per undergraduate student.

Michigan would not be materially different than Rutgers, U Conn, Penn State or any other large flagship where resources are disproportionately allocated to graduate programs.That is just the way the cookie crumbles.

If you are spending top dollar get top dollar service.

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@TurnerT Are you sure that was what @mom2collegekids was referring to in her last statement?

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I would be concerned about premed advising resources for UMich vs Gtown/ND.

I would also be concerned about how difficult it would be for 782 med school applicants to get glowing LORs from the roughly the same profs. It’s not as if there are 3-4 times as many profs. (not to mention that all the pre-dental/vet/PA/PT applicants will also be seeking LORs.)

UMich is fabulous, no doubt. But an OOS premed has other things to think about when considering OOS publics, particularly ones like UMich (or UCLA or UCB) that have a high number of applicants.

I’m still racking my brain, trying to remember the words used to describe the premed atmosphere at Gtown. That said, now I’m wondering if because Gtown has that option to apply to med school after soph year (sans MCAT), that that option creates a more competitive atmosphere. That would make sense.

34

Just want to add that so many kids at ND are very, very happy there. If it is a fit for you it may be the best choice. It is a special place.
They are all great schools. Find your fit and be true to yourself.
Pre-med will be fine at any school.

35

“I would be concerned about premed advising resources for UMich vs Gtown/ND.”

Why is that mom2collegekids? Michigan premeds do well in terms of medical school placement, which would suggest that (1) they are receiving effective and sufficient advising and/or (2) advising really is not as important as other factors, such as research opportunities, strength of curriculum, quality of instruction, abundance of cutting edge technologies and facilities etc…On average, over 50 Michigan graduates enroll at the University of Michigan medical school each year. Try wrapping your mind around that figure. It is gargantuan. Just as many enroll at other top medical schools combined. Michigan is well represented at virtually all top medical schools including JHU, WUSTL and Penn.

On a related note, can someone provide a link to the number of premed advisors currently working at Michigan, Notre Dame and Georgetown? Just out of curiosity.

“I would also be concerned about how difficult it would be for 782 med school applicants to get glowing LORs from the roughly the same profs. It’s not as if there are 3-4 times as many profs.”

mom2collegekids, you obviously aren’t familiar with Michigan. It has a large faculty, one that can handle undergrads with the same personal touch (or lack thereof to be honest) as most research universities in the country, private or public. Let us face it, research universities are not known for following up on undergraduate students. Students are expected to take the initiative. But if a student does take the initiative, the resources available at Michigan, and its peer schools, are inexhaustible.

Making negative sweeping comments about all public universities is insulting and, quite frankly, shows a lack of insight. Comparing Michigan to Connecticut would be like comparing Notre Dame to Villanova. The pairing of those schools are fine since all those universities are good and share some things in common, but they are not identical. In terms of pure numbers, Michigan’s instructional faculty may not be 3.5 times larger than Notre Dame’s, but it is significantly larger (2,700 vs 1,200). In terms of student to faculty ratio, Michigan stands at 15:1 while Notre Dame stands at 10:1. According to their CDS, roughly 50% of Michigan classes have fewer than 20 students while 18% have more than 50, compared to 60% of classes having fewer than 20 students and 10% more than 50 at Notre Dame. So Notre Dame has a slight edge statistically speaking, but it is not glaring, and I doubt it makes for a noticeably better academic/intellectual/classroom experience.

Like I said earlier, the quality of an undergraduate institution or education cannot be quantified. There are many intangible variables that prevent accurate statistical evaluations and comparisons, especially when comparing a large, publicly funded research powerhouses like Michigan to a mid-sized, quasi-LAC private university like Notre Dame.

36

A more relevant figure than the number of pre-med advisors would be the percent of students applying who actually get into med school. The national figures is around 40 percent, but Notre Dame claims 80 percent of their students get into med school.

https://al.nd.edu/majors/arts-and-letters-pre-health/

Michigan claims “University of Michigan graduates are admitted into medical schools at a significantly higher rate than the national average.” Given the size of Michigan’s class, “significantly higher” could be 50 percent.

https://umich.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/223/~/pre-med

This article claims that Georgetown has an 80 percent acceptance rate.

http://www.thehoya.com/when-pre-med-gets-personal/

But is followed up with this article.

http://georgetownvoice.com/2013/08/29/lackluster-advising-forces-pre-meds-to-scramble-for-guidance/

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@Alexandre You are missing the point. It is a question of value and resources. And, the comparison to U Conn is perfectly valid, as it would be to any state school.

Michigan would offer nothing worth $160k in comparison to Rutgers or TCNJ, which are instate for this student and where accelerated programs are offered.

BTW, Father Hesburgh would be happy about your comment about Notre Dame being undergraduate focused.

38

TurnerT, the comparison is not valid. Michigan’s peers from a resources and value point of view are Cornell, Northwestern and Penn, not UConn. UConn is a good university, but it is not Michigan. Comparing Michigan to UConn would be like comparing the University of San Diego to Notre Dame. The majority of academe (including graduate school admissions committees) and corporate America would back me up on this.

But there is no doubt that Notre Dame is more undergraduate focused than Michigan, and that is an advantage that cannot be denied. On the other hand, Michigan has advantages that Notre Dame cannot match, such as premed research and internship opportunities. When all is said and done, both offer equally good, but vastly different, experiences.

39

“A more relevant figure than the number of pre-med advisors would be the percent of students applying who actually get into med school.”

Zinhead, that figure would only be worth exploring if the academic strength (college GPA and MCAT results) and race of those applicants were also factored. Michigan does in fact release fairly comprehensive data. Many universities discourage students with sub 3.4 GPAs from applying to medical school. Michigan does not.

https://careercenter.umich.edu/article/2014-medical-school-application-statistics

This sort of data would be required from other universities in order for a comparison to be made.

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@Alexandre - Thanks for posting the link. It looks like about 55% of pre-med students at Michigan go on to med school which is above the national average of about 43 percent. You are correct about the schools screening applicants. When we looked at Notre Dame, they were very upfront about screening kids out of the pre-med program after the first two years. It benefits the university by maintaining a high acceptance ratio and allows them to better support the kids that maintain high GPA’s through the weedout classes. It also benefits the kids who do not do so well by allowing them to switch to a field they are more likely to be successful in.

Michigan, like most state flagship schools, does not restrict students with GPA’s below a certain threshold from the pre-med program, which is why the acceptance rates are so much lower than ND.