The original poster did not mention it, but they are probably better off going to Rutgers in-state and saving the money. Michigan is a fine school but, unless you bleed maize and blue, going there for pre-med makes no financial sense. At least with Notre Dame and Georgetown, they will get preferential admissions treatment if they apply to Catholic medical/dental schools.
Notre Dame does not have a GPA minimum for a committee recommendation.
@Alexandre The research advantage you speak of does not exist at any school like Michigan as a result of prodigious graduate programs or an affiliated medical school. Elite liberal arts colleges send a higher percentage of seniors to medical school than either ND or Michigan without any graduate programs at all.
The point that we are attempting to make is simply one of where money is best spent. As a parent, I would never subsidize the education of kids in another state while equal or superior options were available instate or at private schools. Service levels and resources per student are much better at private schools because otherwise alumni would not support them.
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Why is that mom2collegekids? Michigan premeds do well in terms of medical school placement, which would suggest that (1) they are receiving effective and sufficient advising
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Again, I have repeatedly said that UMich is an excellent school and fine for premed students.
While MIch med school applicants (NOT the same as Mich premeds) may do well with acceptances (NOT placement), that doesn’t really confirm the quality of advising. If the majority of those who receive acceptances are Mich residents, and they’ve been accepted to the state’s med schools, then that would likely happen with or without great advising. Even strong applicants from OOS would likely get acceptances as well as long as they had reasonable app lists.
Does UMich do Committee Interviews and write Committee Letters?
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"Michigan has a staff of just 4 people advising close 800 pre-med seniors. Can you imagine?"
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Where did you get the 800 seniors figure? Last year, 800 Michigan seniors AND alumni applied to Medical school. Of those, roughly half were seniors who used campus advising resources, while the other half were alumni who did not.
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@Alexandre That is not my quote. I would never say “premed seniors” because adivising “premed seniors” is usually too late since applicants apply during the summer after junior year. Any advising to seniors is too little/too late unless they’re doing a Gap/Glide Year. Anyway, all schools have the situation where some applicants are undergrads and some are alums. So, when looking at the number of applicants coming from particular undergrads (whether graduated or not), is comparable.
A school that has 4 premed advisors and roughly 150-200 applicants will likely be able to provide more guidance than one with 4 advisors and 700+ applicants. Is that hard to imagine? But, again, UMich is a top school, an excellent school.
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come junior year, most college students are, or should be at any rate, fairly independent and capable to gather relevant details about graduate school admissions.
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There’s a difference between grad school app process and med school app process. We’ve been thru…PhD app process, masters app process, and MD med school app process. The MD med school app process is nothing like the others. It’s more complicated and there are several details that are counter-intuitive which is why there are many missteps that derail an application cycle.
@TurnerT quote >>> Also keep in mind ND has about 8,000 undergrads and faculty of 1,200 whereas In Michigan has 30,000 undergrads with a faculty of 2600 and 5 times as many grad students.>>>
^^ That is another concern when an OOS premed is attending a school with a huge number of med school applicants. Do you think that the current and newly-graduated applicants aren’t bombarding a limited number of STEM profs for LORs?
@Alexandre quote >>>> you obviously aren’t familiar with Michigan. It has a large faculty, one that can handle undergrads with the same personal touch (or lack thereof to be honest) as most research universities in the country, private or public. Let us face it, research universities are not known for following up on undergraduate students. Students are expected to take the initiative. >>>>
I don’t claim to be a UMich expert. I’m just looking at this from an OOS premed to med school process, and the most-likely best path for success. You seem to think that I’m bashing UMich, which AGAIN, is an excellent school, a top school, an awesome school. UCLA and UCB are also excellent schools, but when an OOS premed is choosing an undergrad, there are certain things that may make one school better than others…even if those others are top schools.
And it’s not just a public vs private issue. I have repeatedly advised very good, but not tippy-top premeds, to avoid tippy top schools that are loaded with stronger premeds, because those “weaker” premeds will likely get weeded out. A couple years ago, a 4.0 premed from UTexas Dallas transfered to Vandy thinking the better undergrad would be better for a premed. Wrong. His GPA took a huge dive and is likely no longer MD med school eligible. This is not a situation where this student, if he had remained at UTD with a high GPA and had a successful med school app cycle, would be unqualified to succeed in med school.
The MD app process just isn’t always “fair”. My own son has said that if he had gone to a so-called tippy top school, he likely would not have had the 3.9/4.0 cum/BCPM GPAs that he had as a Chemical Engineering premed at his mid-tier flagship, and likely would not have emerged with med school-worthy GPAs. His MD med school dreams would likely have been dashed. Not fair, right? He’s the same person. Right? He’s doing fabulously as a 3rd year med student and spanked his Step I exam and shelf exams. But, a misstep could have meant that he wouldn’t even be there.
I’ll post more in a bit. But, please do not think that this is some sort of hit on the quality of Umich…no. UM is a fab school, no doubt.
“Elite liberal arts colleges send a higher percentage of seniors to medical school than either ND or Michigan without any graduate programs at all.”
Like I said earlier TurnerT, without knowing the GPA and MCAT scores of those applicants at elite LACs, it is not possible to form an opinion on the relative effectiveness of their medical school placement rates. Michigan breaks down placement rates by GPA and MCAT scores. In order to compare how those elite LACs, Notre Dame or any other college or university to another, you would need a similar level of detail.
“The point that we are attempting to make is simply one of where money is best spent.”
And you know for a fact how, and where, Michigan spends its money? Michigan’s endowment stands at $10 billion. Only Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Princeton and MIT have larger endowments, and only Columbia, Northwestern, Penn and UT-Austin match it. Chicago, Cornell, Duke, Notre Dame come close as well. But Michigan (as well as UT-Austin) also benefits from state funding, which is the equivalent of an additional $6 billion. In other words, Michigan’s endowment would be equal to a private university with an endowment of $16 billion.
Michigan’s operating budget is also very large. NOT including auxiliary enterprises (such as medical center) and NOT including research spending either, Michigan’s annual operating budget stands at $2.4 billion. I am also excluding other expenses that are not including on other universities’ financial reports, such as depreciation) Just so that you get a feel for how much that is, Notre Dame’s operating budget (also excluding research spending and auxiliary enterprises) stands at $750 million. Michigan’s operating budget is three times larger than Notre Dame. In other words, it actually spends as much per student than Notre Dame, and I am not even factoring the immense economies of scale associated with a university the size of Michigan. Georgetown’s operating budget (again, excluding research and auxiliary enterprises) is also $750 million. I really cannot fathom why you would say that Michigan does not spend as much money (not even close according to you) as Notre Dame or Georgetown on a per student basis.
Just for comparison’s sake, and this is where your claim shows a lack of insight into Michigan, TurnerT. UConn, which enrolls almost as many students as Michigan (32,000 compared to 43,000), has an endowment of $450 million (22 times small than Michigan’s) and an annual operating budget of $900 million (also excluding research and auxiliary spending etc…). Clearly, not comparable.
“That is another concern when an OOS premed is attending a school with a huge number of med school applicants. Do you think that the current and newly-graduated applicants aren’t bombarding a limited number of STEM profs for LORs?”
mom2collegekids, your concern is justified, but not necessary. While Michigan 3 times more medical school applicants than Notre Dame, have you considered the fact that Michigan’s STEM faculty is also going to be substantially larger than Notre Dame’s (probably by a factor or 2:1). Chemistry, Physics, Mathematics and Biochem majors at Michigan have access to a very large faculty relative to the number of undergraduate students. For example, there are, at any point in time, approximately 150 Chem majors at Michigan (35/graduating class). Michigan has 60 tenured professors. That’s a 2.5:1 student to faculty ratio. Same goes for Physics and Mathematics majors.
At any rate Georgetown and Notre Dame are obviously excellent universities. I simply object to those who claim that they are vastly superior undergraduate institutions to Michigan. In some ways, they certainly have the edge, in other ways, Michigan has the edge. Overall, they are all excellent and can serve undergraduate students, regardless of their major or career track, equally well.
http://annualreport2014.nd.edu/assets/154217/cont_3771_annual_report_final_for_web.pdf
http://www.finance.umich.edu/reports/2015/pdf/UM_Financial_Report_2015-hires.pdf
https://georgetown.app.box.com/s/v4qv8wxny00gyxkqp4plrpwtboqc38is
http://uconn.edu/content/uploads/2015/02/UConn_Facts_2015_Final.pdf
@Alexandre Duke is also the primary beneficiary of a $3 billion independent endowment so it should really be included in the group of schools that match Michigan’s endowment.
That is correct NerdyChica. It was an omission. With its one-third share of the Duke endowment, Duke University’s endowment stands at roughly $8.5 billion.
I have a slightly different question: Say I went to Rutgers (I’m from NJ) and got a very high GPA on pre-mad tract. Would this be more or less impressive to medical schools than a 3.6 or so from a school like Georgetown? Several high-achieving students in my school who are certain they want to be doctors are attending state schools where they can pay less and stand out more that’s why I am asking
Rutgers is a very hard school!!! It would be extremely tough to get super high grades in the weed out pre-med courses at Rutgers. So, yes, very high grades from a very large state flagship would be impressive. But not easy to accomplish at any school.
That would be better than going to Michigan because of instate preference at RWJ and cost and no worse than Georgetown or ND in terms of prospects.
However, I would go to TCNJ and not Rutgers.
@naviance so you do not think it would be easier to stand out at say Rutgers or TCNJ than at Georgetown/ND?
@TurnerT why TCNJ
TCNJ is more selective, smaller classes, more contact with professors, much more pleasant campus, better housing and brand new STEM center opening in early 2017. Food is very good as well. Campus Town just opened and it is very cool. Really nice place. It will remind you of Lafayette or Bucknell.
It is a walking campus, no buses.
I would still go to ND over all the others but in the instate scenario TCNJ for sure.
@TurnerT I see. The valedictorian in my school last year actually went to TCNJ and is pre-med. Do you think pre-med will be drastically different at ND vs Gtown?
3 (out of 205) from Rutgers University. One data point. The Class of 2014 had 10 Rutgers University graduates. You can look at other medical schools to see how Rutgers grads stack-up against other colleges.
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/18872656#Comment_18872656
I think ND attracts a different personality. The student that is more collaborative, more team-oriented, more into school spirit, more social, eager to do community service. You know the type of kid I am talking about.
I would pick ND because the total package is better but Georgetown would be great though not nearly the experience that ND offers. And in all seriousness, the ND campus is far nicer. All this makes for a more memorable 4 years.
@TurnerT I agree - the Notre Dame campus is beautiful and the school spirit is awesome. My only fear is living out in Indiana versus right by Washington DC. I really believe my pre-med experience would be a lot better in a collaborative environment like you describe at ND
I wouldn’t be concerned at all. Keep in mind Chicago is not that far and students do roadtrip on the weekends. You will be very busy and the campus is always on the boil. No worries.
I know the experience very well 
Also, students make way too much noise about being near a place like DC. You will wander around the first few weeks but then spend most if not all of your time on campus. The novelty wears off fast.
It seems that op cares more about Georgetown than any other school. Umich will be much harder than Georgetown in academics.
@NASA2014 Who says?
South Bend also has a branch of the IU School of Medicine. You might check to see how much they interact with ND pre-med undergrads.
I thought it really didn’t matter where you go for Pre-med. As long you can handle the cost and be debt free or with some debt. Is OP, from Michigan?