Yes. I agree too. And schools with a strong core course requirement require students to take courses across a lot of disciplines. Some kids find other things that pique their interest, or a mentor professor they really connect with.
That is why I often suggest that high school students take “premed” out of their equation. Fact is…they can fulfill the requirements for medical school applicants in terms of courses just about everywhere.
Students need to look at the other attributes they want in a college…the medical school ones are just about everywhere.
Thank you for the clarification- I think I was thinking of a different study but this is fascinating.
So for those on CC who have taken organic chemistry (and to all the physicians out there)-- what are the success traits ? I never took chem past HS college prep level (not even AP) so other than hearing how tough Orgo is, I would be hard pressed to advise a kid on how to position him/herself for doing well. Not that there aren’t other gateway type courses- but this seems like an easy shorthand for “are you well prepared”.
Is it the memorization? The math?
One of my kids found Topology to be the “mathematical weeder” class. Is that Orgo?
I could not agree more. I totally understand why so many people start the conversation asking what colleges are “good for premed”, but for the reasons you gave, it really should be a question of which colleges are overall good, and in fact good for that specific student. And then med school either will or will not be in your future, but either way you will be in good shape if in fact overall the college was a good choice for you.
Really the one big argument I see for even considering a possible premed interest is about being extra cautious about undergrad costs. But even that to me is really mostly redundant with having a realistic attitude toward student debt and how it can really limit your future options. Again whether or not med school ends up being your path, having no or at least only a modest amount of debt coming out of undergrad is a really worthy goal.
Since my S24 is staring down the barrel of the Orgo gun as he is scheduling next year, I would like to know the answer to that question too!
And I am also keeping the OP in mind. I know this can seem a little abstract, but I think we are just trying to help you frame this decision in helpful ways. Your exact answer is going to be personal, but say you end up thinking Lafayette would be a good overall college for you and it is the best deal for you financially as well. You really can be done at that point!
But also it is probably worth being aware of what comes next in a premed track, the reasons people switch out, not least in the first semester or two, what is useful to consider both if you continue past your first year and if you do not, and so on. Because I don’t think it is too early to sort of at least game this out in your mind, thinking about how different versions of your four-year experience could unfold in practice at these different colleges. Which may or may not distinguish them a lot, but I think sometimes things do start clicking more one place or another.
We joked that one of my kids started college as an astronomy major and would have continued through the alphabet to zoology except that the “P’s” ended up sticking. Hundreds of colleges have this wide array of incredibly interesting and cool options but we were glad for this kid in particular that you show up undeclared (they don’t admit by major) and that switching (even between STEM and humanities departments) is easy and frictionless. And since we had warned “we pay for 8 semesters, period” kid was careful to note course sequencing and requirements so we didn’t get stuck with the dreaded August or December graduation. Not that an extra semester is a tragedy- it just wasn’t built into the budget.
We eliminated Tufts, as not a good fit and being too far (5-6 hrs drive to Boston is not for the faint of the heart). One of the main disappointments was that they don’t really do anything with their own med school, it’s on a different campus, and we were told that school doesn’t have any formal programs with them, although they implied that med school is open to working with undergrads. Overall their premed advising felt too generic. On a positive note Tufts had the BEST food out of all schools!
Lehigh Fest for admitted students was a blast! We really loved what CAS (College of Arts and Sciences) is doing by trying to develop well rounded graduates with emphasis on critical thinking, communication and soft skills. Concept of a smaller liberal arts CAS program is quite appealing. We talked to some pre-med students and they had positive view of their Lehigh experience.
It looks like for now son’s favorites have narrowed down to Haverford, Lehigh and Lafayette. We still have Lafayette admitted student day next week.
We keep going back and forth between these 4 schools:
Haverford
Lehigh
Franklin & Marshall
Tufts
Lafayette visit was OK, nice people overall and they really try to make you feel welcomed. We didn’t get impression their pre-med resources are as strong as at F&M or Haverford.
This is a lot more painful than we anticipated. On one hand it feels like such a missed opportunity to pass on top schools like Tufts and Haverford, and Lehigh/F&M would be settling for less.
On the other hand, we worry about rigor, caliber of other students in the class and weed out at such highly ranked schools.
All of these colleges will have very challenging pre-med coursework, all will have smart and dedicated students, all will have students drop pre-med. So I’d keep the focus squarely on fit and (if a concern) affordability.
Your son will find smart students at all of these colleges in those premed classes, and they will be similarly challenging. Simply put, none of them has an easier OChem course.
Any of these schools will enable your son to take the required courses for medical school applicants. Beyond that, being a successful medical school applicant is on the student.
So on the one hand, I agree premed classes are hard everywhere, certainly at all the colleges on your list, and so you can’t really avoid that issue entirely by trying to game with college you choose.
On the other hand, I am maybe a little more inclined than some others to think sometimes people get admitted to colleges they are maybe not really fully prepared to thrive at, at least not right away. Obviously usually colleges are trying to find applicants who will thrive eventually, but they don’t really have the time or the information to evaluate that issue as well as you can.
And frankly, they know not everyone is going to get the best grades at their college, because that isn’t possible. And they specifically know that not every student they admit with premed ambitions is going to do as well as they hope in the early premed classes. Which again from their perspective is inevitable, so they really can’t think in terms of refusing to admit everyone who might well have some issues in those classes.
My point is I just personally think you have to self-assess what makes the most sense for you. And if you feel concerned about getting a quick start in your premed classes at a certain college, I am again maybe more inclinded than some others to think you could very reasonably listen to that voice and choose another college where you are less concerned.
Reading through this thread and your previous thread, my first reaction is to agree that all three of these schools are very good, and will provide a very good education for a premed student. They will also provide alternatives in the likely chance that your child decides to do something else.
I do not think that ranking matters at all when comparing these three very good LACs. I would completely forget about whatever some magazine thinks of these three schools. There are a lot of very good LACs in the US, and you are comparing three very good ones.
I would not expect your child’s chances of getting into medical school to be any different based on which of these three schools they attend. If you child decides to do something else, again any of these three schools can provide a good start.
Quite a few forms of “something else” involve some form of graduate school, which can imply additional cost. One daughter for example is currently studying in a graduate program in one common form of “something else” that some former premed students might choose, specifically a sub-field of biomedical sciences. The other students in her very good program come from a very wide range of undergraduate schools, ranging from Harvard to LACs ranked lower than anything that you are considering. Again the choice of undergraduate school is not likely to impact a student’s chances to attend a very good graduate program.
This leaves perhaps two issues: Fit, and Finances.
Medical school is expensive. It is not unheard of for parents to be helping their child with the cost of medical school well into the child’s upper 20’s (in terms of age). For parents who had their children late in life it is not unheard of for a parent who has been retired for multiple years to still be helping their child with the cost of medical school. It is entirely reasonable to want to save some money for the purpose of helping a child later. It is also perfectly reasonable to save some college money to help with funding your own retirement (which presumably will happen at some point).
I think that it is entirely reasonable and responsible and appropriate to take the cost of education into account, particularly when this leaves two very good options. Then I would go with whichever of the two affordable options is perceived as the best fit.
So, going through what’s been written, I have a few thoughts:
From your OP it sounds like Haverford & Franklin & Marshall were pretty similar in terms of the impact of visit days.
It sounds like your family believes that Haverford will be similar to high school in terms of lots of late nights studying to try and keep up academically, and that you have concerns about that being the same for his college experience. If those were my concerns, I’d eliminate Haverford.
Tufts was described as “not a good fit” so that seems as though it should definitely be out.
Lafayette’s visit was “OK” but seems to be below F&M and Haverford, so it seems Lafayette should be eliminated.
That leaves Lehigh, which was described as “a blast” and F&M. Frankly, if my kid thought a school was a blast, I’d be going “Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!” From what you’ve said, it sounds like Lehigh’s the right school for your son.
Thanks for coming back to let us know the final decision, and I’m hoping he has a terrific time at Haverford! Are you willing to share your son’s thought process in making a final decision?
In the end it was mostly about personal fit, he felt like he belonged at Haverford.
His final two choices were Haverford and Lehigh. As parents we also strongly advocated for Franklin & Marshall and Lafayette. All these schools were excellent options with super nice and caring staff, faculty, and students, and we felt sad about declining their offers.
Son visited the classes at all and preferred intimate environment with 10-30 students at Haverford where students can ask questions and interact with professors. We also talked to current students, alums, professors and professional advisors, and our impression was that Haverford offers the best pre-med trajectory.
We also liked that there were no fraternities at Haverford, which would lead to more social opportunities. Consortium with Bryn Mawr/ Swathmore/ UPenn and easy ride to Philly expands small Haverford campus and student community and allows for quality academic and social options.
Many thanks to everyone who contributed with their advise, experience and opinion in this discussion!!! You helped us to make the best decision!!!