Pre Med Classes

<p>Hey, I've going to have to enroll in classes soon and have been trying to draw up a pre med schedule. The schedule I have worked out right now looks like this:</p>

<p>Bio 141
Chem 141
Crediting out of English
Calc (can't decide between 111 and 115 because of what I've read here)
Biology Seminar on evolution</p>

<p>Does anyone know who the best professors are to get and if I should take the lab classes with their science counterparts.</p>

<p>Labs (except for Soria's orgo. lab, and various upperlevel bio/chem labs) are run by TAs. Passalauqua, Eisen, or Spell for Bio 141 (Eisen and Passalaucqua over Spell, Spell last resort), Morkin or Mulford for chem. Probably should just take 115 as you are likely to get a good professor. When frosh spots are added, try to get Duffus. He's the best lecturer and most experienced (none of the sections are difficult).</p>

<p>Thanks for the fast response! If I'm taking calc 115, will coming in from high school with a basic knowledge of calc be enough (only had AP Calc AB available at my school), and are labs separate classes from the normal science courses?</p>

<p>Intro. calc classes here assume students have no experience. And yeah, labs are separate, but the grade is factored into the overall grade of the course (1/5-1/4 of grade). They have their own separate set of assignments, projects, and exams normally independent of lecture (sometimes the material overlaps).</p>

<p>sorry to hijack this thread, but bernie is it possible to graduate in 3 years with a "pre-med" major (I'm actually thinning about NBB)? If I intend on going to medical school, what are the pros and cons of graduating in 3 years. My mother saw that I was transferring the maximum credit hours (24) and quickly figured that I could cut a year if I simply took a couple of summer classes. Do you have any experience or have you encountered anyone who had attempted this endeavor? I greatly appreciate the time you take to thoroughly answer questions. Thanks!</p>

<p>It's definitely possible if you have only one major and have lots of AP, in two majors with lots of course overlap, or take summer school. And not to mention the tuition money you would save. Just be prepared to jump into intermediate and upper level classes straight up during freshmen year. The question is what would you do w/ the extra year? The two possibilities would be to apply and get into med school a year earlier than your peers, or work for a year and boost your ECs full time and get into med school at the same time your peers. The first option is hard for most people to do unless they're extremely efficient and plan on finishing their pre-reqs and taking the MCAT after sophomore year at the latest (more likely during soph year or even after freshmen year), plus getting all the major medically related ECs done within 2 years before applying. And even then, chances are your experience isn't that extensive, and med schools will likely look down on that much more than they look up on the fact that you got your undegrad degree in 3 years. The second option is more feasible for most people, and gives you a chance to take a year off from school while still entering med school at the normal age.</p>

<p>I disagree, summer is far from inexpensive (as I'll explain below) and NBB, though it has easier courses than other natural science majors, also requires many more courses and certain core courses are not offered every semester (and these certainly are not done during summer). Also, 1 year less is probably 1 year less doing research or something interesting other than a year of some vanilla ECs. Preparing for MCAT, etc. while doing research or a very meaningful ECs (as opposed to things like shadowing, vanilla volunteering, as nice as it is, maybe building an organization on campus or something. Campus life facilitates meaningful ECs quite well, and a person trying to cram pre-med requirements plus NBB requirements will have a hard time taking advantage of this component). I suppose as long as the year off between applying=meaningful ECs (heck why not stay and study abroad or have a research experience abroad, fin. aid and scholarships are good for this and it'll look better than typical ECs), I guess it could work.</p>

<p>Anyway, here's my take on the NBB situation. I guess. If I was pre-med, I would have finished the requirements in 2 years. Didn't need summer classes either (but I took 2 for fun, though no pre-med courses). 3 years, should be doable assuming you keep up w/your GERs. Actually, doing NBB may be tough because of all the electives. Why not, find another major and perhaps choose NBB courses to meet your interests in the field. You could begin taking some sophomore year for example. You don't need a "pre-med" major, just pick a major that you like that is more doable in 3 years and do NBB classes on the side perse. That's kind of what I do as a chem/bio double major (needless to say, this can't be done in 3 years). I have so far taken many psyche, NBB, history, religion, and political science courses on the side (for interest as opposed to GERs. Luckily many filled the GER requirements). </p>

<p>The problem w/NBB is that, before you jump into some key courses and sometimes electives required for the major, you need bio 142. This means that, besides NBB 221, you can't start taking many of them (you'll have to cherry pick and upperclassmen may beat you for courses w/no bio or interdepartmental pre-req) frosh year. Then considering the pre-med requirements/recommendations, other courses (cores and electives) may not be done until 4th year, no matter how many credits you entered with (remember that many if not most, entered w/24 credit hours). For example, problems w/it are that courses like 201 and 302 are only offered in spring. And ideally, sophomore year, when you are probably taking physics and orgo, you won't want to add either of these two (okay 201 is doable) and definitely not NBB 301. This pushes at least two of these to junior year. And then you have to somehow fit all of the electives, 301, 302, and 401 between sophomore and junior year. I doubt that will happen as GERs must be factored in (yes, this is even if you take 20-22 credit hours per semester). On top of this, many med. schools recommend things like Cell biology and biochemistry. </p>

<p>Perhaps you can increase the chances by taking some of the NBB electives over the summer, but given the limited summer offerings, it may still be difficult (I know animal behavior is offered over summer, and if you're lucky, some anthropology classes that count as electives will be offered during summer). Also, if you are doing summer courses (at Emory mainly), ask yourself if the cost is worth it for summer courses. I enjoyed being in Atlanta w/my friends, but I didn't think it was worth it. The financial aid is pathetic during summer and I really needed it. You could maybe try to do NBB electives at a local college, but the equivalencies may not end up being approved for such a major (many colleges may not offer counterparts to some of the electives in anthro. or psyche for example). </p>

<p>Basically, you will need to jump over many hurdles to make this happen. If you are, by chance, taking frosh orgo. this year, instead of gen. chem (basically did you get AP chem credit?), this can open up your sophomore schedule a lot as orgo. is gone, instead, easier inorganic classes can be scheduled and this can allow for perhaps at least 1-2 NBB electives to fit nicely, or maybe even NBB 301 (a core) and 302(another core) can fit that year (you can do these w/physics and say chem 260 and 350. Much better than doing them w/physics and orgo. 301, physics, 260L, + 2 easy electives, perhaps one being a WR if possible, say animal behavior, fall, 302, 350/355L, physics, easy elective, WR or some type of GER). Also, another good bet is to fit NBB electives in either the psyche or anthro. department starting frosh year (as those don't need biol 142).</p>

<p>Also collegestu: You have to remember that things like History courses no longer fullfill GERs, thus, they'll still have to take courses like those. And w/sciences, except for physics, you can't exempt both portions of a sequence. Math, you can (but then med. schools still want you to take more math, maybe stats. and 1 upper level, which will be difficult to fit. Perhaps take calc. 1 and 2 during summer? which is a waste if you have AB/BC credit).</p>

<p>Oh, yeah, the 302, 350/355L, physics, easy elective, WR or some GER refers to a prospective spring semester of sophomore year (then junior year, you can do 401 and 201 along w/the other electives and GERs). I forgot to specify</p>

<p>oh man, i am so lost. Quick question, if I have not taken AP CHEM..... my only option is to take CHEM 141, right? and to take that, I have to take a placement test? a placement test which i will surely fail (and not get the required 80%). SO that means I automatically lose 3% of my grade?</p>

<p>1) don't be presumptuous and assume that you'll "surely" fail anything. Are you going to that before actual bio and chem. tests?
2) You can take it several times (maybe 3ish of more). Get an old HS gen. chem book or go online, and try to go over some of the stuff on the placement exam (note that the new system also apparently teaches students material before allowing more tries or something), and then take it.. Yes, if no AP credit, 141 is the only option.</p>

<p>how do you know you failed? i have taken it and never received any email about it or anything. it was only 28 question. i got a 4 on AP chem so im not exempting the class. can i take the credit for the lab only or do i have to take credit for lecture too?</p>

<p>why aren't you exempting it w/a 4? A 4 is sufficient to exempt 141. Why waste time? Seriously, you should just move on to orgo. It's a superior experience and you don't really need the best gen. chem background to handle it. It's far better than sitting in a class w/100+ students doing run of the mill/cookbook lab experiments. Gen. chem has too good teachers, but if you have AP credit 4 o5, it still sucks (and it doesn't guarantee an A, even if the material is review for you) The difference between a 4 and 5 is not the difference between knowing the material and not knowing it. Either way, if you decide to take 141, you cannot exempt anything. Lab is part of the course (it's not a separate credit). I would at least skip it and take something more interesting 1st semester, take 142 2nd semester and perhaps take 260 w/L sophomore year (upper level inorganic that is actually pretty straight forward so it'll look better than 141/142). </p>

<p>Many med. schools do it like this: Harvard</a> Medical School: Requirements</p>

<p>Which means knocking orgo. out frosh year makes life easy sophomore year (which is a year where many science majors experience a slump due to much tougher courses). You'll basically have physics 1 and 2 and chem 260 (fall or spring) w/lab which is much easier to manage than physics and orgo (people's experience and my experience indicates that chem orgo. and bio are best taken together, not physics and orgo. For some reason many find orgo. and physics to require a much different style of learning and find switching back and forth to be difficult) as chem 260 is an easy"ish" inorganic level course, not to mention it makes you look less vanilla (avoiding the oppurtunity to take a higher level course to satisfy a requirement looks vanilla). </p>

<p>Anyway, if you would like to waste time in a less stimulating environment or lack so much confidence in basic chem. skills, I guess you should carry on. As for the placement test, I'm going to guess you passed if you only got 28 questions though I don't know.</p>

<p>im debating between accounting and nursing so the 141 will help determine what i will choose. i cant go orgo because nurses have different orgo class. is lab part of 141 grade or it is separate?</p>

<p>I'm willing to bet that nursing will except real orgo (I think the one they take is some watered down version, it doesn't emphasize applications or anything. I'm sure frosh orgo. and Weinschenk for sophomore section emphasize more apps. than that). and not to mention, you'll probably come out w/a much bigger back ground than those who take the nursing version. You should ask about that. Seems that nursing designs their pre-reqs around the idea that nursing is targeting weaker students in the sciences, and that doesn't seem fair (to you or others doing any pre-health related thing). </p>

<p>The nursing website says something about chem 141 and 142, with an organic component (or organic chem. itself). Ask them if you can take the AP credit for 141 and take orgo instead. Simply tell them that you have a background in gen. chem and you want a broader background than nursing orgo. is slated to provide. I'm willing to bet 221/222 is superior to that. </p>

<p>Here's the website: Emory</a> | School of Nursing</p>

<p>Never mind: Here's one that makes it even more clear: <a href="http://prehealth.emory.edu/academic-preparation/other-health-professions/nursing/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://prehealth.emory.edu/academic-preparation/other-health-professions/nursing/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>You can take 221-Z/222-Z. I recommend asking about the AP credit for 141 (I'm sure they'll accept it). If interested, tell them you want to take Soria for orgo. and proceed to join the fun. I'm sure 221/222 can make your decision as clear as 141 (which doesn't even resemble a high level or smaller environment like the nursing school) merely because neither involve finance. If anything you should take a chem course and econ. together (intermediate if AP credit in micro and macro) and see which one you like better. It wouldn't make sense if you simply take 141 or 221 and say, "I don't like science at Emory, so I'm doing finance" when you don't even know if you'll like finance (and you certainly won't know how much you will like it. You may dislike both and dislike econ. more or vice versa). I suggest you not limit your options and scope as a freshman. It's possible that both roads will suck or be uninteresting. Professional school is a great thing to play with and consider as a freshman, but it shouldn't already be to the point where it's either a) or b) if you know what I mean (it makes a lot of assumptions about this school and your taste, which hasn't been explored at Emory yet). The two tracks are quite different. Just because you're at Emory doesn't mean you must fall in line and be pre-bus or some sort of pre-health (what is that? 2 possibilities of 80-90). It should be on the table that you won't like either, not "no matter what, it's one or the other, whether I like them or not". Hopefully this will be clear by end of frosh year. Make sure you try to challenge yourself, enjoy the other classes (not relevant to either field) and explore some.</p>

<p>Also, I hear Menger, who teaches chem 120 (the so-called orgo. for nurses), isn't good at all. Chances are, it'll set you up for not liking nursing/science when you should choose the best of both pre-req tracks and compare them (getting the best econ. teacher, best chem teacher, etc). It'll make sure you see both at their best. The material won't be uninteresting merely because you have a bad teacher.</p>

<p>Bernie12, I have a question that you have probably answered before but I could not find it. If we plan to pursue premed, why do you suggest we double up on chem and bio fall of freshman year? Can't we do Chem, Bio, Physics, and Orgo each of the four years we are at Emory? Thank you.</p>

<p>The problem is that most people will take the MCAT junior or senior year. All 4 of those topics are on the MCAT. Ideally you don't want to be a position where you haven't completed each course before taking the MCAT. And if you are in one course the year in which you intend to take it, it's ideal to have at least 1 semester done (I mainly speak of physics where mechanics is probably more important than E and M. I imagine both sequences of bio and chem are equally important). In light of this, whether you do it frosh year or not, you will likely end up doubling up as a pre-med eventually (if you want exposure to the material before taking the MCAT. Heck as a science major, doubling up will be the norm. I'm not pre-med and this is my case). Also, most of these courses are gateways to other upperlevel courses that med. schools apparently like to see (cell bio, types of genetics courses, biochem, which needs chem, orgo, and biology, etc).</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
If we plan to pursue premed, why do you suggest we double up on chem and bio fall of freshman year? Can't we do Chem, Bio, Physics, and Orgo each of the four years we are at Emory?

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Unless you plan on taking a gap year after college you'll definitely want have all four pre-reqs done by the end of junior year since med schools will want to see grades in those classes when you apply. Although I don't see much reason to not have the completed by the end of sophomore year (doubling up is not as bad as it sounds, a lot of science majors will easily triple or quadruple up beyond the freshmen year), if you MUST take one of them junior year for some unusual scheduling conflict (not because you don't think you can handle it), from the standpoint of being prepared for the MCAT that would best be orgo. The PS section of the mcat is ~50% gen chem and ~50% physics, while the BS section is ~75% bio and ~25% orgo, and a majority of that orgo tends to be from first semester, so you'll have the smallest gap if you take orgo your junior and take the mcat towards the end of junior year. Biol would clearly be the worst to take junior year for the mcat, and not to mention that it's a prereq for nearly every upper level bio class here. </p>

<p>As far as designing a typical, balanced pre-med schedule and taking the mcat, I'd suggest taking gen chem and bio freshmen year, orgo and physics sophomore year, and the mcat during the summer after your sophomore year. This allows you to have all the required prereqs done and gives you an opportunity for a retake (without cramming) during or after your junior year if you don't get the score you want (which for most people should be 30+ with at least a 10 in each section, although it seems like almost half the premeds here don't meet that when applying to med school...), and leaves you room to take recommended course like biochem and human phys before your 2nd attempt at the mcat should you need it.</p>

<p>Collegestu: I just have to pick out the one laughable aspect of your assessment. Nothing really wrong w/it. Just that a terrible course was put in league w/other med. school pre-req auxillaries and the subsequent fact that most pre-meds here find it to be such a great course to take (I suppose that explains the truancy rate and the fact that they need additional incentives just for students to show up. A waste of 4500 bucks, no offense). </p>

<p>Human phys is not recommended or even liked by most med. schools lol. I don't know why it's so popular. The class sucks and is taught pretty poorly at Emory (seen the material and it's far weaker than even my high school anatomy and phys. class). I seriously get the feeling they like Cell biol, genetics (as in not biol 142, but human genetics, adv. molecular genetics, or epigenetics), and biochem better. I ran into the dean of Baylor med. at Georgia Tech one day. This was a weird run-in as he tried to convert me into a pre-med using the logic "We need more under-represented minorities in the medical field". He then sweet talked me into attending his med. school info. session. I proceeded to pull out a book and ignore while the Tech students sat there and looked surprised at the fact that they (Baylor, and likely several other med. schools, if not most) liked the idea of students taking more social science/humanity oriented classes. As in ones not offered in great abundance at Tech (you know, we have like Global Health, environmental science, anthropology, etc).</p>

<p>Point is, he mentioned that courses like human phys. are generally viewed as useless (also, I think they know it's a joke course) compared to cell bio et al, and are kind of seen as cheap attempts to display interest in med. school. Apparently, several pre-health advisors at Emory have also advised against treating it as an important auxiliary course. Many other friends have been encouraged to take other things instead (and these friends promptly dropped or avoided the crap that is human phys at Emory. These friends are fairly reliable, and don't have the same advisor so I have no reason to believe they are making up what was said to them). </p>

<p>I just had to say that because I don't really want to recommend that crappy course. One is better off taking either comparative vertebrate anatomy (which at least has a lab) or organismal form and function which is taught well and teaches more useful skills than biol 336. The size of 336 should not be as large as it is (especially considering the fact that Seiglar or whatever, has become known for incompetence). The class is pathetic, and when a professor try to reform it the students resist it citing: "the other section does it like this". IE, the "why are you giving us short answer when they are getting multiple choice?" debacle in Jaegar's class the past spring. I would have replied, "because I am a different person and hopefully a better teacher than Sieglar or some visiting prof" instead of giving in and giving a multiple choice exam that still yields only a 70-75 average. Note that Jaegar also tried a Friday case study, and that only went over well w/a small amount of people in that class whereas PBL/CBL is like the center of organismal form and function. That is perhaps one of the only courses that shouldn't need biol 141/142 as a pre-req. It's so stupid, it could be taken w/no background but should really just not be taken at all unless they fix it enough so that it is good enough for people to take for interest instead of what may the false illusion that it helps impress the med. schools (seriously, why would a human phys or human anatomy course w/no lab component be particularly impressive?)</p>

<p>Dani and any other pre-med interested: When the time comes, don't follow the herds into Biol 336!</p>