Prents. Using your experience, what do you think is the best educational system?

Parent Cafe
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<p>Uria and Opie,</p>

<p>Both of you have pts! studies show art and music help students. As an American society we lag in Ma/Sci compared to the global world.</p>

<p>The only pt that I give to URIA hands down, 5 min passing time…lets be honest go to any hs and u will see kids hanging out socializing. I remember going to college and freaking out that I was given only 5 mins to travel the entire campus and not knowing how I could do it. Lesson learned passing time is to get to and fro, not to hang w/friends. I wasn’t ever late in college, but I was in hs</p>

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<p>Are you writing from experience? Why do you think that people develop at exactly the same rate and the same way? My S was with students 5 years ahead of him and did fine. It was when he was with his age peers that things went awry. </p>

<p>Now, it is true that in general, 10 year-olds are different from 15 year olds. But we’re talking about “the best educational system.” And the bestl educational system ought to be flexible enough to accommodate difference.</p>

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<p>My s was offered to skip his gr. since 3 weeks into k. I always declined— to be successful you need to be able to relate with peers.
My s was offered slots to magnets, we deckined, the world is filled with ignorant people, you must be able to relate.
10 yr olds have no bus. w/15 yr. old MRI’s even show their brains operate differently.
We have one family w/3 kids. ea. will grad by 14, Mom jumped them all. Kids are looked upon kindly/not teased/respected, but nobody is calling to see if they want to hang.<br>
Then they go home and their peers can’t relate…
I am sure u have the complete opposite view and as a Mom I would love to understand why u would want your child to graduate and become an adult before they needed to (again no insult, mea culpa if I did)</p>

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<p>You do have to relate to people who are less well educated than you. But why should it be a problem? I don’t expect the cashier at the supermarket, the garbage man, the mailman, the woman who does my nails, and so forth to have Ph.D.s, to be able to discuss Russian literature or ancient history. It does not mean that I can’t have conversations with them, provided they have the time.</p>

<p>Why do you assume 10 year olds have no business being with 15 year olds? My Ss are 6.5 years apart and get on famously. </p>

<p>My S was accelerated because he wanted to be accelerated, because he was bored to his eyeballs working at the same level at his age peers but not his intellectual peers.</p>

<p>Why do you assume accelereated students are incapable of relating to others? (same song as in para 1, different verse). Aren’t students supposed, first and foremost, to relate to the materials that are being taught instead of “relating to one another,” which is another way of saying yakking away and being rowdy?</p>

<p>My S could not leave high school fast enough. Thanks to acceleration, my S is a well-adjusted, happy student in college. His age does not make one iota of difference as courses are not organized according to age but according to level of preparation and difficulty. And that should be how it is in k-12.</p>

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It seems equally ridiculous to not realize how brainwashed you have been. I am speaking both from my own experience and that of my kids. (Not to mention that I have read a number of those studies that Tokenadult links.) I spent several years in a one room school house. I also graduated from high school at 16, so I had plenty of experience being a different age from my classmates. Sharing a classroom with older kids doesn’t mean you have to go on dates with them. Neither of my kids at 15 were interested in pornography - they both still like video games. When my son was 8 or 9 he sought out older kids to talk to about computer programming because there were no other kids his age who knew what he was talking about. When he was playing chess he played with kids with his rating, not with ones of his age.</p>

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<p>Where and how did pornography get involved? None of my children have an interest in porn…OMG!
Next, my s was able to jump, asked every yr through his 8th grade. Declined every yr. I did so because I wanted to give him a well rd. school experience. Declined magnet schools also, did do jump start sr yr.<br>
Marite, congrats on your son, I am happy to hear he is loving it, but is he living on campus? If so, I take it he is 13 and roommate is 18, what 18 yr. old wants to live with their little bro. That was my pt. Life is more than school, its about friends, boy/girlfriends, prom, going to the movies on sat nt.</p>

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<p>As a matter of fact I do speak from experience. I was scheduled to go straight from the 4th grade to the 6th grade. After about a month I realized how difficult it was to get the 6th graders to except me, the 5th graders would not befriend me as well since I was not a classmate. I decided to go back to the 5th grade to feel comfortable with the children my age. </p>

<p>Let’s say we tossed out the educational system and threw classes together based on ability. Do you honestly believe that the older kids will not bully the younger ones? What about the students who aren’t able to perform at those levels? Shall we let them fall even further behind than they are now?</p>

<p>One major flaw in our educational system is the attention we give to the bright and the attention we lack to give to the rest of the students. </p>

<p>Look at countries with the best educational systems. Let’s emphasize on one we all can agree on - Japan. Why is it that Japanese students outperform just about any other country, while using the same criteria for the student body of a classroom as the united states does?
Are we forgetting that we already cater to the advanced students by placing them in advanced courses that challenge them even further? </p>

<p>It is simply absurd to believe that you can throw a random group of American children of various ages in a classroom and expect them to seed off each other the way students due with others their own age. A 3 year difference may seem like no big deal to an adult but to a 10 year old its 30% of their entire life. </p>

<p>How many high school students do you know who are ashamed to hang out with children 1 year younger than them, let alone be placed in a classroom with children 3 years younger and imply that child is capable of doing the same amount of work.</p>

<p>There are many contributing factors to a childhood experience, and the experience of sitting with children your own age with the same mindset is the most effective way to educate our children. Our classrooms are diversified through the children’s experiences, placing random children together will cause chaos, bullying, confusing. Is that what american culture needs? Don’t children have a difficult enough time attending school? Doesn’t befriending children your own age serve a purpose in childhood development? Doesn’t the experience seem better when it is with people your own age? </p>

<p>If we use Mathmom’s method, then why not throw high schools into PhD level research and let them figure out how to work with older students on their own? An educational system needs to be set based upon the way society shapes out children, and the current system is perhaps the best way.</p>

<p>There are indeed exceptions of children who do mature quicker and share interests with older students. This however is not the norm. We look out for the best interest of all the children. Not only the few who share interests with older children.</p>

<p>P.S. 15 year old boys are indeed interested in pornography, It is absolutely normal. Puberty kicks in at about age 13, children are curious about sex and odds are they do look at pornography, I sure know I did when I was 15. Did my parents know? I highly doubt it.</p>

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<p>I also speak from experience. My S was indeed bullied–by someone his own age. He was fully accepted by college students who were 5-6 years older than he. One thing acceleration accomplished: it removed S from the vicinity of the bully who carried on being a bully through high school (he’s dead now, shot point blank at 19 over a drug deal gone bad).</p>

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<p>Marite makes a good point about the risk of bullying in different settings. My son has certainly NOT met more bullies by learning in an age-diverse assortment of learning situations, in many of which he was the youngest student present.</p>

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<p>I watch the history of my 3 computers to know what sites they have been on, what I consider porn and what anyone else considers maybe 2 diff. things…I am talking mags, internet, cable. My kids have no access to any of those. R 15 yrs. olds were curious abt sex, spent many hours having adult conv. w.us and I never found any evidence of porn. BTW kids have friends here…we are the hang out place, so they are not seeing at someone else’s,
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I still would be interested in my previous ? Does s live in the dorms, who does he hang with…Again this is not meantto be antagonistic, merely curiosity…u may now kill the cat</p>

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<p>“American school children are already very far behind A LOT of nations as far as secular education goes. We lack in Mathematics and Science, and while you may see the need to have children breed creativity, I disagree”</p>

<p>Likewise, I tend to question what I am presented when all the data gathered neatly fits somebody’s arguement. Creating worker bees, doesn’t create innovation, or the next new product… it creates drones… Having opportunities to visit other places and learn what we see on tv or read from research isn’t necessarily so… </p>

<p>As you look at the history of innovation and thought usually it was those who thought outside a boxed set of ideas that found the next big leap in our world. And actually if you had read a bit closer, in no way did I say do away with the maths and sciences but to add creativity back into the equation. So we’ll create those smart competitors you wish for who will actually have enough creativity to make something new, rather than a knock off copy of… </p>

<p>"We need productivity. " No, we are the most productive we’ve ever been in history. What we are lacking now is creativity to get us off this plateau… working Harder is not the answer… we need to work smarter again… create and grow… my arguement is by simply overworrying productivity we are taking away from the next great innovation which requires creative thought. </p>

<p>I want new things and new ideas, putting your nose to the grindstone only focuses your eyes on the wheel. </p>

<p>Yes, we do disagree, very much so…</p>

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<p>Are you serious?? Can anybody say “NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND”, designed to keep the focus on the lowest performers?</p>

<p>I thought we had reached a consensus that American high schools are severely lacking opportunities for the highest achievers in math and science for the sake of ‘political correctness’ and so we can tend to those who are underperforming. If you look at countries like Russia, India, and China much more attention is paid to the best and brightest. Those countries routinely edge out Americans in international academic competitions. How can we deprive our nation’s smartest kids even more than we already are?</p>

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<p>"Look at countries with the best educational systems. Let’s emphasize on one we all can agree on - Japan. Why is it that Japanese students outperform just about any other country, while using the same criteria for the student body of a classroom as the united states does? "</p>

<p>But and please correct me if I am wrong, doesn’t Japan have a much higher teen sucide rate then the us? </p>

<p>You strike me as well read, but in the same token you believe too completely the things that you’ve read… I tend to mix experiences like talking with the japanese exchange students we hosted over the years and hearing about what tremendous pressure they feel to make it at 14 and 15. About being labeled “failure” before 16. How much they worry about discracing the family if they can’t make it to university… </p>

<p>So not, we don’t all agree about Japan, </p>

<p>It’s a perspective issue, I am raising business owners, not workers…</p>

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<p>bulletandpima:</p>

<p>Yes, S is a junior in college. He plans on living on campus all four years. Most of his friends are one year or more older than he is; but he also has friends who are freshmen or sophomores and may be younger than he is. Nobody pays attention to age except as an excuse to throw birthday parties. Before matriculating in college, he took some classes in high school and some in college. He was happier in the more advanced high school classes and happiest in the college ones. The key was the ability to function intellectually at his level. He had plenty of friends in the high school clubs.</p>

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<p>Hip Hip Hooray for Amb3r,</p>

<pre><code> Ask any teacher how they feel about no child or any gifted child’s parent, I am sure they could write, read or give a dissertation about it. Going back to the orig thread on this, Amb3r has hit the nail on the head POLITICAL CORRECTNESS. Teachers have lost the ability to say no they failed in the younger grades, instead parents come and fight to get their child promoted. Child promoted and the next teacher is left w/child who shouldn’t be there to start. Class fills up w/1 or 2 (10%) and teacher must slow class down to get the child who shouldn’t be there to start with up to par. AG students sit and twirl their thumbs or worse yet at the ripe age of 3rd grade become an unknowing tudor (student study partner).
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<p>AG kid gets nothing out of it, forced promotion child doesn’t meet stds., promoted again anyway bc of parents and the cycle continues…
PLEASE don’t tell me this isn’t true, worked in the system and kids were AG’s saw as a parent. THUS, PC to promote caused the whole sytem…GOAL 2000(Clinton Agenda)/No Child (Bush)</p>

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<p>Sorry, I have carpel tunnel in my hand which causes prolems if I type to fast. Thanks, I will slow my hand down to make sure.</p>

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<p>Yes, and innovation is going to occur without mathematics and sciences? I do not judge based upon other thesis, But the way I see it before our students innovate the way other countries do, they need to be educated to the same degree the others are. Japan is perhaps the most innovative country in the world, boasting technologies that far surpass the US & pretty much all western European countries. Japan just so happens to be the most educated in mathematics and sciences. </p>

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<p>We are the most productive we’ve ever been, yet we lack innovation? How does this come to play, how do American businesses succeed? Is it not through Innovation? With all the technologies that have been recently introduced in the U.S. you argue that we are not innovate? </p>

<p>Listen, I am all for innovation, but how can we innovate and create new standards without the basic infrastructure first? Anyone can have a brilliant idea, without the skills to produce ideas will only get us so far.</p>

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<p>Suicide rate is higher in most of the eastern hemisphere, that is irrelevant to my comment that Japanese students are more advanced than United States students. Isn’t japan a leader in innovation? HMM I wonder if there may be a link.</p>

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<p>I think UriA and Opie are both going a bit unreasonably far out in opposite directions. UriA, you say “anyone can have a brilliant idea” - oh really? Just because we are productive doesn’t mean we’re innovative. One implies sheer efficiency, the other creativity and inspired thought. Opie, public HS curriculums already offer art electives, and all students seem to be required to take a year or two of gym in high school. I don’t agree that we should have ‘frequent recesses’ or other elementaryschool-esque diversions. We would definitely benefit from encouraging more out-of-the-box, fun assignments and unusual courses to be introduced into the system, although not at the expense of academic rigor and advanced material. I would love to see some of the busywork assigned to me in a few of my ap courses replaced with more open problems that require deeper thinking. I think a healthy chord can be struck that balances MORE academic rigor with MORE fun and creativity in the classroom. One does not necessarily have to be lost at the expense of the other, especially if we cut out time wasted on assignments that offer neither academic nor ‘learning to think’ benefit to students.</p>

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<p>You guys are fun and prove my point at the same time… you’ve locked into concepts that don’t allow flexibility to create a creative mind</p>

<p>“and innovation is going to occur without mathematics and sciences”</p>

<p>please find where I said that? </p>

<p>“Japan is perhaps the most innovative country in the world”</p>

<p>I would argue that japan enhances other’s innovations. They are copiers (w/improvements) not creators… they can enhance someone else’s idea. </p>

<p>“We are the most productive we’ve ever been, yet we lack innovation”</p>

<p>the two are separate things… that’s why it’s called a production line, not an innovation line… </p>

<p>“how do American businesses succeed? Is it not through Innovation?”</p>

<p>" With all the technologies that have been recently introduced in the U.S. you argue that we are not innovate? "</p>

<p>NO, I argue that we aren’t innovative enough? </p>

<p>What you’re encouraging is the doing the same job, by learning the same way. worker bee. An engineer in the us and an engineer in india learn exactly the same way, but will the us engineer find work if the indian engineer will do the same for one fitth the cost? </p>

<p>“but how can we innovate and create new standards without the basic infrastructure first?”</p>

<p>Did I ever say do away with? you’ve added that to the situation, not me. I’ve implied adding to, not taking away, but the addition is to be spent developing the creative mind, not the copying formula mind. You can have both, but what’s happened is we are listening to the business already in America which tells us “we want workers” including mr gates by the way… cause mr. g doesn’t want someone to create a better mircosofty… by squeezing creative thoughts out of the school day, you may get smart people who can’t think outside of a rigid concept. It’s the ability to look at an engineering situation and figure out how to do it differently than what we were taught that we aren’t working hard enough on. That is my point instead of more math and science, make better use of that time, work smarter not harder, and use time for creative purposes. </p>

<p>understand yet? :slight_smile: </p>

<p>“Anyone can have a brilliant idea, without the skills to produce ideas will only get us so far.”</p>

<p>Someone thought of a wheel before we had the skills to build one. Sometimes it the egg first, sometimes it’s the chicken…</p>

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<p>you are taking my words out of context. </p>

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<p>Japan leads the world in inventions.</p>

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<p>Where did I say that you implied to do away with them. I simply implied that American youth are increasingly losing interest in technical career fields. The “lack of innovation” of which you speak may very well be a direct result of the lack of mathematics and science being emphasized in schools. </p>

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We have innovation, we innovate, but we can only invent to the extent of our technical ability. </p>

<p>Which brings me back to the original point, the best overall way to improve on our education system is to put an emphasis on mathematics and science. I never said we should not allow youth to breed creativity, but we can only innovate so much, we will not be able to surpass other countries if we are not as advanced in mathematical and scientific research. </p>

<p>And if you want to bring up that we are productive enough, I beg to differ. College graduates nowadays feel as though they are entitled to high salaries, this is especially true about students in finance/business. A big contributor to this is the insufficient salaries in many fields which is leading to a major decline in students studying engineering or sciences. I am an engineering student, and I can tell you first hand why this is. The salaries are pathetic. In certain parts of the country it is very difficult to live on a civil engineers salary. Add the debt students accumulate in college, and it’s not hard to see why people are choosing majors such as Business. We can only invent so much without the technical ability to design and build. Pushing our students to study math and science will create more jobs in the field, which will indeed lead to innovation.</p>

<p>Listen, I apologize if I offended you in anyway. Being an engineer and working in technology has brought me to the realization that there is a tremendous need for engineers and scientists in the future to innovate. If we keep pushing High Schoolers away from engineering because they see it as a burden, we are teaching them that IT IS NOT worth studying engineering. They believe that it is far too difficult for the average person, Making engineers and scientists to be these sort of people with a separate brain, we need to familiarize them with the processes involved in engineering and sciences and showing it does not take someone locked up in a lab in a tower to be a scientist.</p>