Preparing to Apply - Information for H.S. Juniors and Seniors

soozievt · November 19, 2008, 2:06pm

Idk…I try to volunteer a lot on CC to help many at once. But I can’t do a lot of individualized help voluntarily. There are just so many hours in a day and I have a ton of work with my students/families whom I am advising in their college process and that has to be my priority.

I also can’t really deal with your D’s list in great detail without more information.

A couple comments…

At Northwestern (I encourage you to read the Northwestern threads on the MT Forum in that school’s subforum), it is quite competitive to get into the MT Certificate program after one year. That information you have is not correct. Some who have ties to the school have stated that about 20-25% of those who audition for the MT program, get admitted (again, this is after one year in at the university). Over a year ago, I posted on the NU MT thread the following:

That information is therefore a year old.

Your D’s list seems well balanced between both BA and BFA schools and she has safeties. I think if she wants a double major, a BA path is more suitable to her. In that vein, a lot of your D’s BA schools (the NON audition ones…I’m not counting the BAs by audition as that makes them reaches)…but the non audition ones are very heavy on the “reach” side and not that well balanced. Even though your D has very high stats, highly selective BA schools that accept fewer than 20% of applicants, must be considered as reaches by ANYONE even IF they have a top profile as your D does. (I have a D who applied to highly selective BA schools, not for theater…she went to Brown, but while she had the stats to get into any of the schools, we considered them all reaches as their admit rates are very low).

So, if your D is seeking a BA path in order to double major…Muhlenberg is good. But you might look at Skidmore, Conn College, Boston College, Tufts…well, I now see you do have Vassar and so you do have a Match BA school…sorry! Good. Not sure how much MT there is at Vassar but it is an excellent school for theater. I had a MT student last year with very high stats who wanted a BA. She landed at her first choice, William and Mary. Have you looked at Brandeis? I have a student who wants a BFA in MT who has schools like Brandeis and Skidmore on the list (also a very strong student). Look into Sarah Lawrence too. American might suit your D quite well. The BA is not as competitive to get into as the BFA in MT programs but is selective and so that seems like a good option. James Madison would be like that.

Re: Temple…I don’t think it is going to be as academically challenging as your D would prefer. The BA in Theater has a new MT Emphasis/Concentration option. To get in, you audition in singing, acting, and dancing. First, you have to be accepted academically to the university. Temple is known for good theater and this MT program is new and so the word is not spread as much, which helps with the odds of getting in. They put on one Mainstage musical and one small-scale musical or cabaret each year. This year they are staging Damn Yankees and Cabaret. The program culminates in a MT intensive audition/performance seminar. There are opportunities to perform in theaters in Philly.

Montclair State is a good BFA in MT Program but academically not that selective and so if you are looking for a BFA in MT where the university is more academically selective, I would have suggested Emerson, Elon, U of Miami, and NYU. I would also explore USC which has a BFA in Theater but has a MT Minor. Real good option for your D I think.

Your D also needs to think through if she prefers a BFA or a BA. Either way, she will be prepared to be an actor. Either way, she will prepared to get a variety of jobs in or out of the field. At some BFAs, she can take a fair amount of liberal arts courses or minor. I see no need to double major. If she or you feel real strong on the double major thing, I encourage your D to go the BA route. That is an excellent option.

Your list has many appropriate schools. The experience at each will be quite different. By the way, the theater program at Barnard and Columbia is joint. My D has a close pal who went to one of the top BFA in MT programs in the country who is now happily at Columbia doing theater (as a transfer).

I also think if your D does a BFA and wants a more academically selective school…not sure why she dropped Penn State and put in Montclair. Penn State seems like a better fit to me. Your D’s desire to double major is taking out BFA in MT schools that are more academically selective. Thus, she is either gonna have to give in on the academic level of the school, or else she should opt to add the BFA schools in MT in more selective colleges OR go the BA route (a very viable option).

MichaelNKat · November 20, 2008, 8:31am

idk, soozievt’s posts 198 and 201 are about the most cogent, comprehensive and on point responses you could get on your inquiries. I would only add a couple of points.

First, if a double major is a priority and BFA programs are among the schools on your list, then it is critically important that your daughter (and you) thoroughly understand what the curricular demands are of those programs and whether a program really provides the space for a double major given the course requirements and requirements for auditioning, working as crew and of course time commitments for shows. For example, Syracuse was listed by you as a school for a double major. The last time I looked at Syracuse’s BFA MT curriculum, space is built in for only 8 classes outside of the department over 4 years. A parent whose daughter is a junior at Syracuse, has posted about how intensely packed her days are between all of her class and out of class responsibilities. Make sure to get info on double majoring from the theater department and current students, not the admissions office.

A minor point on which I disagree with soozie is that you should not per se rule out Temple, particularly if cost is an issue. Temple has an honors program which attracts many students with very impressive academic credentials. Because it is a large state related university and because part of its mission statement has always been to make a college education accessible to students who may be first generation college attendees and who come from educationally disadvantaged backrounds, Temple is often misperceived as not having opportunities for demanding and excellent academic vigor. What you will find is a much broader range in the student body at Temple as compared to selective private colleges or universities, not that the opportunities for for high academic achievers is not there. I think the bigger question is whether Temple overall provides a college experience that your daughter would thrive in, not whether it will be academically challenging and exciting.

When my daughter was selecting colleges, my dilemma was similar to yours. My daughter was a very high academic achiever taking 3 - 5 honors/ap classes each semester of high school and I could count the total number of B’s she got on one hand. She also had very respectable SAT scores. It was accordingly with no small degree of trepidation on my part that she selected to attend a school that is considered an arts conservatory with a sprinkling of liberal arts mixed in (she takes 1 liberal arts class a semester outside of the department). What I have come to realize though, is that even within the confines of her BFA program, there is academic rigor. Classes such as script analysis and theater history require extensive reading of meaningful dramatic literature and other texts on historical and social perspectives. They involve analysis, research and paper writing. My daughter is experiencing a meaningful academic component within the confines of an “arts conservatory” type of institution. Consistent with soozie’s comments, I have come to realize that my daughter’s BFA MT experience is indeed a fuller “college education” than I had anticipated.

I would be cautious about insisting that your daughter attend a school where she could double major. As tempted as I was to do likewise with my daughter (and for which she had BA programs on her list), I came to realize that this had to be her vision of a college experience, not mine. In retrospect, she would not be having as nearly as gratifying a college experience if I had not allowed her to take the lead in reaching a final decision. It was important for my daughter to have options at the end which included BA programs and opportunities to double major but it was also important that she have the freedom to make her own decision. Just some thoughts.

soozievt · November 20, 2008, 11:05am

I concur with Michael that even for the BFA schools where you think your D could double major, please talk with faculty in the BFA and with current students to see how viable that option truly is. It would be very difficult at many schools.

I also agree with Michael…but this is a personal value…I’d let my child make the choices of what to major in and how many majors to have and where to go to school (unless there are financial parameters). I would not insist on a double major (but if your D really wants one, that is a different story). I also don’t think a double major is necessary at all (see my earlier posts). But if she truly wants one, a BA is the way to go usually. But I can’t tell if she really wants to focus on MT and not double major and that you simply want her to double major or just what. Either way, she is going to get a college education which will put her in good stead for the future.

By the way, I do recommend Temple to students quite often. Hey, my Dad was an alum! I agree with Michael that the top students at a school like Temple could rival students at any very selective university and so the challenge can be had there. The difference is that the entire university or student body may not be of that type but that’s OK. It all depends on which atmosphere and environment your D prefers. Temple may suit her well since it has a MT major and not many BA schools offer that and she could major in something else as well or minor in something else there. Just be sure SHE wants that. If she wants to do MT more than anything else, a BFA is more suitable.

That said, I know highly talented MT students who either got into BFAs or were competitive for BFAs but WANTED a BA and chose to attend Brown, Yale, or Northwestern and so those are GREAT options for your D if she can get in, which is no easy feat (though she appears to be a contender!). I would also look into USC or UCLA.

Momsinger · November 20, 2008, 12:41pm

Several thoughts…
My daughter, who is at Montclair now, graduated sixth in her high school class. She is currently at Montclair and loves it. She’s in the honors program which helps the academic challenge issue. It’s true that Montclair is not as selective, but that doesn’t mean that your student couldn’t be happy there; the program there is terrific, the people are extremely diverse, and these are all factors that have been extremely important to my daughter’s happiness there. However, I wouldn’t count on a lot of financial aid there unless you’re in-state. Montclair is a state university and that kind of money does not flow.

The other thought I wanted to share has to do with the so-called double major. You have to remember that MT already IS at least a double major, and at some places (including Montclair) is really a triple major, or can be (my D is taking 9 dance classes a week this semester!). As has been mentioned before, at some of the BFA programs there is NO room in the schedule for anything else; Syracuse and Carnegie Mellon come to mind.

And I agree completely with soozie that MT or theater major is just a fine preparation for life. It’s my basic feeling that it almost doesn’t matter what you major in anyway. Changes can be made down the road at any time. The discipline involved in studying music, dance, and theater will serve our students extremely well for their entire lives.

NewbieMTMom · November 20, 2008, 10:48pm

I am very new to all of this as the parent of a freshman BFA MT at Syracuse so I don’t have a lot of great advice to give yet. However, I can confirm that it is extremely difficult to schedule ONE elective per semester outside of MT, let alone the requirements for a double major in something else! I am amazed at how full my D’s schedule is. And that’s the main problem – it’s the scheduling of classes that is the challenge, not the student’s desire. The first semester freshmen take 18 credit hours; second semester freshmen take 19 credit hours. Add doing tech for shows on weeknights and on weekends (no performing first year) and forget it! There is simply no time.

I was very hung up on the double majoring issue too but I am trying to listen to what soozie, michael and others have been saying. My D is so happy and blossoming in so many wonderful ways, that I’m going to try to be patient and enjoy watching her take this very special journey. I get hung up sometimes on the fact that she was such a great student in high school and I want to be sure that there is a viable backup plan (second major) for her “just in case” … but this is what she loves and she is very challenged by her classes. So, I’m trying to go with the single major BFA flow!

MichaelNKat · November 21, 2008, 1:12am

Hey soozie, we must have led parallel lives. Both our fathers graduated from the same college (Temple) as did you and I from the same college outside of Boston. And now here we both are with kids in BFA MT programs. Next time you’re down in my neck of the woods or I’m up in yours, we’ve got to get together and compare tales!

soozievt · November 21, 2008, 1:23am

Michael, I can’t recall that I knew we went to the same college! Maybe you told me a long time ago, can’t remember…my mind is going. I was in the class of '79, but graduated a half year early in Dec. '78. I didn’t know your Dad went to Temple but mine did too and he is from Philadelphia. I was in your area for about two weeks last month and was even in the city and thought how nearby I was but I was there for reasons that would not allow such visits unfortunately. Not sure when I’ll be coming back but at some point. Are you ever in my neck of the woods? I didn’t think so but I tend to get down to yours. And I also told you that my next door neighbor growing up had the same full name as you do. And come to think of it, our daughters have similar names. OK, back to our regularly scheduled thread.

idk · November 21, 2008, 8:20am

Thanks all for your replies. The best part of this blog is the various opinions peple have even if you don’t agree.

Just talked to D again. She is totally focused on NW because they have all that she wants to study. (This was a wake up call to me. Hello your kid wants to study Opera And Musical theater And acting And French and Study abroad.). With all that, maybe the BA route makes more sense. NW does seem like the ideal school,. Doubt we can afford it so desperately scrambling to find other schools with both strong music schools and MT/theater and affordable. Many schools on our list may get dropped off at this point.

My D likes both opera and Mt. MT is a first love but with a Soprano voice she is being encouraged to go more towards the Opera. direction. However D has told me early on that she would be happy in the ensemble of any MT show if that’s all she could get.in to.

Looking for schools where you can do both Opera and MT OR BM /BA in Vocal Performance AND Theater.

Northwestern, University of Michigan, Temple, University of Maryland—yes

Penn State –???,Vassar ???

** Syracuse,yes/ no I think.I rememeber Syracuse has some sort of thing where if you are in the music department you can not audition for Musical theater shows ???

American, Brown, Muhlenberg, Montclair State, Columbia, Barnard, Wagner – no

Any Comments/corrections or anyothers anyone can think of???

Just to compound the stress. We just found out all applications have to be into D’s school by Dec 3 for Jan 1 school deadlines!!!1

onstage · November 21, 2008, 9:46am

You are correct about Syracuse – auditions are only open to acting and MT majors.

soozievt · November 21, 2008, 9:50am

In my opinion, your D should go the BA route. She is truly interested in studying more than one thing. She already tells you that she likes Northwestern a lot and that is a BA school. She should go to a school that offers good theater and good music and lots else. She may not want to go the BM route as again, that can be a significant part of her curriculum like a BFA and not allow enough options to study and explore different areas like a BA allows. In my view, for a kid like your D, I would have kept schools like Brown and Yale. Also, if your D is a FA applicant, these schools meet 100% of need based aid and their FA policies have changed in the last year or so to be even more generous to middle income families. I’d likely keep Columbia or Barnard too. I really think Muhlenberg is still a good option. Wagner and American also balanced the list. What about James Madison? If your D applies to UMichigan…do you mean for the Vocal Performance program or the BFA in MT? Both are not like doing a BA but both are really great at UMich. At Tisch or Steinhardt at NYU, though a BFA or a BM program, there is still a decent amount of liberal arts, an opportunity for a second major or minor and clearly you can study abroad as well. Your D is a very strong student and perhaps she may get a scholarship, and ya never know (we surely had no idea that was possible until the letter arrived and so don’t rule it out).

Does your D know that Brown and Vassar have an open curriculum? That means she can take anything she wants and piece together exactly what she wants to study over the four years. Seems like a great option for your D.

Perhaps your D wants to look at Music schools? What about Shephard at Rice U? I have a student who is a freshman there. Definitely check out USC. Also look at UCLA. And she should consider as a safety school…Indiana U!

The thing is, in order to put together stellar applications, it is late to be coming up with schools. Her efforts need to be into each essay and application. I’d keep a lot of the BA schools she had on the list and likely knock out BFA ones like Syracuse. I’d consider BFAs where sometimes students do study a second area such as at NYU or UMich. Your D may wish to look into OCU and UMiami if she really wants a BM in MT degree.

CoachC · November 21, 2008, 9:51am

Dunno if it the double major is possible there, but you may want to look at IU (Indiana). GREAT vocal music (one of the most competitive) and has MT also. And a big university where there are many academic opportunities.

NewbieMTMom · November 21, 2008, 9:33pm

Indiana has either a BA in theatre where you would probably have the flexibility to double major or the BFA in MT where there would probably be lesser flexibility (IU also has the Jacobs School of Music as Coach C said which is awesome). Also, U of Miami/Frost Music School has a degree called the BMO in MT which is a Bachelor of Music in MT with Options. The BMO has plenty of flexibility to allow for other classes/areas of study as compared with either the BM in MT (also in Frost) and also the BFA in MT which is housed in Theatre Arts. The BM in MT and BFA in MT are the conservatory style degree at U of Miami. You might want to check out the “BMO.”

Maril · November 23, 2008, 1:18pm

Hi, MichaelNKat-- I’ve been reading many posts on this site and really enjoy both your responses and Sooziet’s to many questions/concerns. I am a Mom of a Senior boy who has started the process for Musial Theater — his passion since he was young! All of his Auditions are scheduled and he works with a vocal teacher (over 2 years) and is working with his now retired Drama teacher to choose monologues. I have some vey specific questions that maybe you or Sooziet or anyone out there can answer (we’re getting different responses from people and are a bit confused) so, here goes:

What should a boy wear for MT auditions? (He will bring with dance pants (once we find the right style)/shoes to change into for the dance part). More concerned about his “look”–nicer T that form fits his body with nicer pants… jeans or no jeans? Button down shirt (He’s not as comfortable in this but wants to appear the right way). Also — regarding dance attire..
we are having difficulty getting dance pants but we live in NJ so my husband went to Baum’s and came home with skin-tight pants. (The salesperson gave him girl’s dance pants because they were out of boys and said they would fit,HA -gave us a good laugh!) We are re-ordering looser pants(more like the Gene Kelley type but we’re hoping this is right. Any suggestions?)
Monologue and song choice advice: Our son is working on an older Sondheim piece from a show that ran for only a few performances. He also has choices from The Scarlet Pimpernel and other more known songs. Not all of the schools he is auditioning at give you a "DO NOT DO THESE…for monologues and music). His vocals are strong and most of the pieces he has chosen show his range nicely even if the songs are not as well known or very well known. Is there any piece, in your experience, he absolutely should not sing? and/or any monologues he shoyld not attempt? The monologues are more tricky since he is being given many suggestions. He already has two serious pieces but I’m thinking a more comedic piece should be added. Any suggestions for a male?
For students who are in this process (and parents) what should we try to avoid…i.e. once you get to the audition. Also. can the music be copied/bought or does he have to bring books? We’ve gotten mixed messages. How about walking in with a water bottle? Mixed messages here,too!
Finally (and I hope you can respond or put this out there for others)…if any students are at PACE for MT, Ithaca (MT), Point Park (MT), MarymountManhatten (MT), UArts (MT)Michael --I think that is where your daughter is!— and can give some personal feedback about the programs we would appreciate it. Thank You!
Just a note—our oldest son went the traditional route…this is such a different process and experience. It can seem so overwhelming!!! Thank you again. Maril

Maril · November 23, 2008, 1:21pm

MichaelNKat --I hope you got my post. I’m somewhat new at this and it didn’t seem to go where I thought it would!

KatMT · November 23, 2008, 1:54pm

If you go on Dance Distributors or Discount Dance (both online) you should be able to find men’s dance pants to order. Usually mens dance pants are made of black cotton with stretch (like lyrca) in them… not shiny spandex. You will also need to order a dance belt. These pants with a t-shirt (not too long or baggy) will be fine.

For his acting/ singing audition I would not recommend jeans unless they are VERY nice with a button down shirt, and a tie. If he wears khakis, or another kind of dressier pant he can wear a button down shirt, or a nice sweater, and forgo the tie.

Some schools post do not use lists, others do not. Sometimes that do not use list from one school can help guide you for other schools that do not post lists. If the older Sondheim show is Anyone Can Whistle, there are some good songs in there… although a few can be difficult to play. If a school says no Sondheim, I would not present Sondheim at that school. There are no general nos for all kids (in response to your question “Is there any piece, in your experience, he absolutely should not sing? and/or any monologues he should not attempt?”). In general material from shows currently running on Broadway tends to be overdone… Thoroughly Modern Millie is also still pretty over done in college auditions. I would suggest that he have a comic monologue as well as the serious ones in case he is asked for a contrasting monologue.

I am sure that you will get many more responses and opinions to your post. In general it is important that he find material that he likes and shows him off well.

Good Luck!

MichaelNKat · November 23, 2008, 3:23pm

Hi Maril - Here are my thoughts on your questions:

<ol>
<li>Attire for males - For this, I went to my resident expert, my daughter, who pays very close attention to how males are attired at auditions . She suggests that males wear nice slacks (no jeans) with a button down shirt and comfortable but nice shoes (no sneakers). Much to my surprise, she tells me that a lot of guys are also wearing ties for their vocal and monologue auditions, but I never would have thought that! Based on what she is observing at her on going auditions for shows and a class she took this summer taught by the casting director at a highly regarded regional professional theatre in Philadelphia, what’s being suggested for guys is almost like business casual.</li>
<li>Song and monologue selections- There are others who can give you more detailed piece specific responses but as a general rule, I would avoid pieces from shows that are currently running or closed recently or anything that is closely associated with a particular known performer. I would also suggest having “audition ready” 2 upbeat and 2 ballad type songs as well as 2 comedic and 2 dramatic monologues so that your son has extra material in case a school asks him to do an additional piece of one type or another.</li>
<li>The most important thing at the audition is to try to relax and enjoy the experience. Easy to say and tough at times to do. One of the things we did whenever possible was to scout out the location in advance of the audition time so that when the time came for the audition, we were not stumbling around trying to figure out where to park and where the building was, which can create monumental stress the day of the audition. My daughter kept copies of her audition material in a looseleaf binder, music 2 sided copied, and all her songs separated and labeled with dividers. When she entered the room, she introduced herself to the auditors and accompanist and went over her music selections with the accompanist, leaving her binder with him/her for the accompanist’s use. My daughter also carried a gear bag with her containing dance clothing, water and snacks for use outside of the audition room. She either left it outside the audition room or placed it in the corner of the room by the door, depending on the circumstances.</li>
<li>As to the specifics of the program at UArts, I have posted a lot of info/thoughts on various threads under the UArts sub-forum which is listed at the top of the MT page. My suggestion would be to peruse those first and then let me know of specific questions you have and I will be glad to respond. In a nutshell, my daughter is deliriously happy there - she feels she is getting very balanced and intensive great training, loves the atmosphere, loves the city and couldn’t picture herself anywhere else.</li>
</ol>

Hope the above is helpful.

srw · November 23, 2008, 4:00pm

I definitely agree that for guys, business casual is the way to go, no jeans! Hair trimmed, face shaved, shoes polished, it shows respect and seriousness for the task at hand. For dance auditions, dance wear and dance shoes are a must. Definitely put together a book, and do have at least one back up in each area. I read on here recently about one student who was asked to sing several other songs in their audition. Being well prepared is very important, it shows seriousness and good work ethic. The auditioners are looking for talent, potiential and good work ethic. My son had a total of 11 back up songs in his book, I realize it was probably overkill and he didn’t need them, but he was well prepared for any eventualty which I think help to give him confidence and helped with the “what if” nerves.

Maril · November 23, 2008, 8:16pm

Thanks for your response! Maril

Maril · November 23, 2008, 8:23pm

Thank you to everyone for responding. My husband and I thought that we were bright, professional adults … but this whole process can really make you feel like you don’t know what you’re doing!!! Even with reading the books, going to visit schools, and having our son working with Professionals the information can sometimes become overwhelming! Maybe after our son’s first audition we’ll all feel more comfortable with this process. As we keep telling our family and friends…it’s a whole different process for applying (and then hoping that he’ll have choices!!!). This site is really terrific so if anyone else wants to add their advice…please do! Maril

NotMamaRose · November 23, 2008, 9:11pm

Maril, it sounds as if your son is on top of the process (it’s fantastic that he has all his auditions scheduled … many kids don’t!) and that you all are asking the right and smart questions.

Re: audition pieces. Yes, it’s nice to avoid the overdone (don’t sing something from Wicked, etc.) but the most important thing is for your son to sing selections/do monologues that show him to best advantage. A lot of kids (including my own) probably spend/spent too much time trying to find those “just right” songs and monologues that no one else has, and that’s cool, except it’s not necessary! Your son certainly doesn’t want to be one of a hundred boys singing that same song, but that’s unlikely to happen. Just make sure that he has consulted each school’s audition instructions, so he knows when to do what kind of songs and monologues and he should be fine.

No jeans. No. Never. I don’t care that some students have posted here that their best friend got into Juilliard in jeans. Your son wouldn’t go for most job interviews in jeans and this is as least as important. Dressing in a suitable and appropriate manner. (nice dress pants/khakis and a long sleeved shirt) is a way to show the auditors that he cares what they think of him.

Best of luck!

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