Preparing to Apply - Information for H.S. Juniors and Seniors

soozievt · September 7, 2008, 3:40pm

BritBrat, I advise a lot of students your son’s age. That is what I do for my job. Everything you have written about him makes me lean toward advising him to do a BA path. The luxury of a BA path is that kids this age often do not know for sure what they want (that’s NORMAL!!) and have flexibility to explore in college and figure it out. Further, they can concentrate on more than one thing if they have two equal passions. I had suggested to you earlier in the summer that your son could do a BA in theater/MT combined with Engineering or with Environmental Science at many schools. Or major in one and minor in the other. I suggested Tufts, for example. Brown is great for a kid like your son as it even has an open curriculum and thus NO gen. ed. requirements and he could fill his schedule with engineering, environmental science, and theater only if he so desired. Lots of great MT at Brown!

A BFA is a professional degree program aimed at students who have decided already at a young age to commit primarily to one focus area with some liberal arts mixed in (more or less depending on the university). It is a big committment to one area and a very specialized degree program that has no flexibility.

Let me tell you a personal story in my own family…

My oldest daughter was interested in architecture but not ready to commit to it at age 17. For one thing, unlike theater, it was an area she hadn’t done enough of yet to commit (whereas my other kid had been in theater since age four). In Architecture, there are two degree paths, much like with musical theater. You can enter a five year BArch degree program which is a professional degree program that leads to licensure and becoming an architect and no grad school required (though it is an option). Or you can do a BA degree program plus a MArch degree program (like 4 + 3). The BA doesn’t lead to licensure and is just a college major like any other liberal arts major and in fact, doesn’t even have to be in architecture. The MArch is a professional degree program taken after undergrad school. My D chose NOT to apply to the five year BArch programs/colleges because not only was she not ready to commit to this field at 17, but she also knew that about 65% of her coursework would be in ONE field (as is the case with a BFA in MT or a BS in Engineering program) and she wanted to be able to still study many things and just have a regular college major that normally is about 1/3 of one’s total coursework. So, she went to Brown and did a BA in Architectural Studies but got a liberal arts education that she valued and was able to do other things like study abroad and be on a varsity sports team and things she wanted to do that are part of normal college. This week, she began a MArch (3.5 years) degree program at MIT’s School of Architecture. She is ready to devote her full time to one area only. On just the second day of school, she had a project due the next day that only allowed her group to get five hours of sleep as they worked in the studio. Her life is now going to be in school very very very full time and in the studio to all hours of the night and on weekends. But she knew this and is ready for it. She did NOT want that to be her undergraduate experience and that is precisely what a BArch program is like and also what an engineering program is like and what a BFA in MT program is like. It is not what a BA is like, however (though that ain’t easy by any means either).

I have another daughter who has known since nursery school that she wanted to go into MT. She didn’t even debate the BA vs. BFA decision because she knew with 110% certainty that she wanted a BFA specialized professional degree program (though she wanted some liberal arts with it as she loves learning about the world and loves to write and values a broader education…which was one of the appeals of NYU/Tisch for her). She was ready to focus on one area of passion as her major and where it would leave little time for much else or certainly not for equal attention to another area.

Neither of my kid’s paths was better than the other. But they are different paths. One wanted to study a few things in college and not commit to one area or a specialized degree program that took up the majority of her coursework, but is now in a professional school for grad school and one was certain of her focus and committment and to doing the majority of her coursework in one area.

Based on what you have shared about your son…which is a very normal profile for a teenager, I would have recommended a BA school where he could pursue both of his interests and have the flexibility to explore and figure things out. A BFA in MT program is for those who have already figured it out and chose one area of focus. That is my view.

EnjoyTheAdventur · September 7, 2008, 3:57pm

Soozie - your last posting helped me in way you might not have expected. Way back when, when I was in college every time, day or night, that I would go by the Architecture dorms the students were up working (yes they had separate dorms - several very very small rooms filled with one bed, a drafting table, a small dresser with a mini frig placed on top and about 2’ by 4’ of uncovered floor space to move? around in.) Architecture students I knew often pulled all nighters sometimes for 2 or 3 days straight. Back then I didn’t understand how anyone could be that committed to their major.

Reading your posting reminded me of those students. I look at my daughter and she is that committed to musical theater. She, like the architecture majors, puts MT in front of parties and other social activities and sleep. She loves MT.

Your posting solidified that my daughter is one that would probably be happiest in a BFA program.

Thanks for confirming that for us.

NotMamaRose · September 7, 2008, 4:21pm

britbrat, your son sounds so intelligent and passionate! Please keep us posted as this story moves along, so we can cheer him on.

(If he isn’t absolutely sure about a BFA, I would urge you to have him look at the engineering program at The Johns Hopkins University, which not only has a fantastic, highly ranked engineering program, but also has opportunities on campus to study acting and opportunities to study music/voice/dance through the Peabody Institute.)

britbrat1961 · September 7, 2008, 5:13pm

Thanks all. I will report back after the application/audition process. He will not apply to any schools that don’t have both interests and says that if he is not accepted to a BFA program that he will accept the fact that he is “not cut out for the business” and will proceed with a great academic path while taking classes or auditioning for plays at the college that he attends (if and when allowed). This is all his choice and not mine. He is very clear with his path and whether he becomes an engineer or environmental scientist first or a performer first, I have no doubt that he will accomplish both eventually.

As a mother I can only give so much guidance. The ultimate choice is his and I feel that I have given all of the tools that I can for him to make the decisions.

If he is disappointed because his list is too short or not diverse enough and does not make it into any programs, that will be a good lesson learned.

If he is accepted into a program, I can assure you that he has researched the academic side of the institution and will be happy at any of the ones that he is accepted to. He is absolutely aware of the stiff competition and is prepared for rejection, but confident that he has done his level best to prepare in order to be competetive.

With his father and his step-father both retired, we are hoping that he will be eligible for some financial aid and hopefully some merit aid. It will all start to be revealed as we move forward.

Good luck to anyone else who is also pursuing a dual path.

britbrat1961 · September 7, 2008, 6:44pm

Stickershock…not to open up a huge debate again, just a link that you might be interested in where it explains how the Engineering degree is combined with a BFA

[Michigan</a> Engineering | Undergraduate Degree Options](<a href=“http://www.engin.umich.edu/students/academics/undergrad/degreeoptions.html#music]Michigan”>http://www.engin.umich.edu/students/academics/undergrad/degreeoptions.html#music)

britbrat1961 · September 7, 2008, 8:41pm

And the one for the U of Mich dual degree for a BFA in dance and engineering.

Dance at Michigan can be also be studied as part of a dual degree program. Many of our dance majors graduate with a Bachelor of Arts or a Bachelor of Science degree alongside their BFA qualification. The University of Michigan Dance Department is accredited by the National Association of Schools of Dance (NASD).

This is also a very structured BFA program with a 120 credit curriculum

MichaelNKat · September 7, 2008, 10:23pm

Not to beat a dead horse, but read the UMich sites with a discerning eye and be cautious in generalizing the info there to a dual degree BFA MT and BSE or BS in Engineering. The link in post 165 involves mostly dual degrees with engineering where the second degree is a BA or BS. The exception is Music, but the site indicates it will normally require 11 or 12 semesters. Having spent much of my professional endeavors representing a Local of the American Federation of Musicians and working with many accomplished professional musicians who have successful full time performing careers, I question whether the program is intended for musicians who intend to make a full time career of performing. Most professional musicians I know would not delay their performing careers for an additional 1 1/2 to 2 years beyond the requirements of their music program to get an academic degree.

As to the BFA dance and a dual degree or major, that is comparing apples to oranges. The number of credits and structured aspect of a BFA dance program does not give a complete picture to compare with or that is analogous to a MT BFA. It is important to understand that the time commitments for an MT BFA program, because it involves multiple disciplines, can be substantially greater than the time commitments for a single discipline performing program even though the “credit hours” appear about the same. For those interested in exploring the possibilities for a dual degree or double major involving a BFA MT degree, it is critical to ask the right questions in the context of the MT program specifically.

In an earlier post, soozie noted “A BFA is a professional degree program aimed at students who have decided already at a young age to commit primarily to one focus area with some liberal arts mixed in (more or less depending on the university). It is a big committment to one area and a very specialized degree program that has no flexibility.” This hits the nail on the head and should be considered closely in evaluating how to best approach dual degrees or dual majors.

The BFA program is really designed for the student who is 110% committed to a career in performing right out of college and who want to focus their college experience on that singular goal. It is not the only path to success as a performer but it none-the-less requires and reflects a certain prioritization of time and resources. If a student is unsure of their ultimate career goals or has a strong interest in concurrently studying another discipline, I have difficulty understanding the logic of not seeking out very strong BA theatre programs with excellent MT opportunities (and there are many) where the nature of the program readily lends itself to a dual degree or double major that can be completed within a 4 year time frame.

MusThCC · September 7, 2008, 11:00pm

Well, no offense, Michael, but that is the phrase that has been drumming through my head the past several days on this topic.

Britbrat has been told repeatedly by several people that it either 1) isn’t possible, 2) isn’t advisable or 3) doesn’t make sense. She has just as repeatedly said that she has checked, and at least some places it 1) is possible. Only her son can determine if it’s advisable or makes sense. She is as unlikely to convince you the wisdom of their plan, as you are to convince her of the wisdom to abandon it.

So, cry friends, and move on. After all, the topic is probably not pertinent to most people on the MT threads. The stress of the upcoming audition season is going to be more than enough, without hurt feelings and acrimonious posts.

soozievt · September 7, 2008, 11:14pm

Given the time of year and that many new seniors are still creating their college lists (not all are as far along as many CCers tend to be in this process), this conversation brings out some ideas to consider in choosing a BA or a BFA path and so I think it makes for some good reading. I have a lot of students who are grappling with BA or BFA decisions and many who say they want to double major and so the issues involved in deciding are rather pertinent. I admit, I have not run into someone expecting to do a BFA in MT and a BS Engineering program simultaneously before, but some of the issues in this discussion are ones that other students grapple with who are either uncertain, not ready to committ, have two equal passions, or want a “back up” plan that means another major and feel they need that or their parents insist, etc. So, lots of this discussion may pertain to others who are trying to make this decision at this time of year.

By the way, I happen to agree with Michael that a BA program would be the ideal choice for someone who wants a double major and that a BFA is not the only good path toward a performance career.

soozievt · September 7, 2008, 11:22pm

By the way, it is very common for someone who is majoring in an area like the sciences or engineering, to also double with music because they want to continue their music in college but like Michael asserts, many of these students are not planning to become professional musicians and their career focus is on their other major (engineering, etc.) For someone who is hoping to become a professional musician, it often requires that the main focus (as opposed to a split focus) be in music in a conservatory style approach. When I read a site like UMich’s, it reminds me of many schools where engineering students continue with music and do a dual major. What I haven’t yet seen is someone doing engineering with a BFA in MT. But if britbrat knows of any doing the BFA MT and the BSE degree…that’s great. I can’t tell if she has met anyone who has done that specific degree combo but it is good that her son is looking into it. Whether he can find 7-10 BFAs to apply to that allow for this exact combo, it remains to be seen. Given the odds of admission, one needs at least 6 or 7 BFAs on the list.

britbrat1961 · September 8, 2008, 12:01am

Just a question? Have any of you actually visited the U of Mich. campus? I only use it as one example because we asked the exact same questions at each campus. I will share this exerpt from an email sent to my s from U of Mich. and then I am done. I was only trying to give information that hadn’t already been obtained and I am weary with trying to share as is all seems to be so foreign. I cannot share every professors name or email, but I can share a part of this one.

Dear Mr. %%%%%,

I am delighted that you enjoyed your visit to North Campus. Dual
degrees between the SoMTD and CoE are not that rare. Twenty years
ago while serving as a student advisor, two students that I advised
had chosen that route. Like you, they both knew exactly what on the
SoMTD side interested them. Interdisciplinary programs have become
even more common in the last decade. We now have faculty who have
joint appointments in the two colleges. As for the choice of program
within CoE, you should choose the field that interests you most. The
two students I advised were both in electrical engineering, but you
shouldn’t feel limited to EE. Your thought about taking ENG 110 is a
good one if you are not sure which engineering discipline interests
you most. I will cc Sharon Burch, our Director of College
Admissions. She will be able to guide you in the process of
admission to both colleges.

Yes, he has 8 colleges to apply to with 6 auditions so we will go forward and see what happens.

soozievt · September 8, 2008, 12:13am

I have been to UMich for two extensive visits and my child applied/auditioned there. I have met with Brent Wagner and with Laura Strozeski. Those are the two people I’d want to talk to with regard to combining the BFA in MT with the BSE degree programs. We have sat in on classes and my daughter has done overnights with many BFA in MT students. She also has friends in the program. I also have attended the auditions and heard Brent Wagner address auditionees and their parents. The meeting with Laura Strozeski was private. Have you spoken to them?

My niece is in the BFA in Acting program at UMichigan as well.

I agree with the person who wrote you and said that dual degrees with the School of Engineering and the School of Music, Theater and Dance are not that rare. I am most interested in the combo of the BFA in MT and the BSE…not music or dance. Am wondering if the head of the MT program spoke to that combo or if you were put in touch with anyone that has done that specific combo, thanks. Just want to learn about this myself.

Good luck to your son!

PS, when I referred to the number of colleges, I was asking if there are six BFAs in MT where a joint degree with a BSE can be done. I am not sure and that’s why I asked. I realize he will apply to a good amount of schools.

britbrat1961 · September 8, 2008, 12:20am

Yes, to answer your question, he has 6 BFA programs to audition for that will either allow the dual major with engineering or at least complete as much of the engineering program as possible before transferring to Columbia or another engineering school. He has a master class with Brent Wagner coming up soon to work on his audition material, so I am sure that he will get more direct information at that.

britbrat1961 · September 8, 2008, 12:33am

To answer your question about the BFA MT and BSE at U of Mich. We asked that specific question to the admissions director at U of Mich. MT dept. and he said yes. He also asked to look at my son’s transcript and after looking at it, said it was absolutely allowed and did say that it would take extra time which we already knew. We also asked how Mr. Wagner would feel about it and asked him to be honest if he thought he would not allow it. He said that he would never tell a student that they could not do it if they were capable and could carry the course load, not to exceed 19 credit hours per semester. The odd thing about U of Mich. is that they have a very short Christmas break and then their Winter semester is over by mid April. They have two “sub quarters or semesters” after that beginning in April and ending sometime in the summer, so there are more academic sessions than the other colleges have. Perhaps that is why they are able to fit more academics in if one wishes to take advantage of those extra sessions.

soozievt · September 8, 2008, 9:13am

Sounds like you got the information you needed. I did not realize that an engineering degree could be flexible because I thought it was like a BFA or even a BArch where each semester’s courswork is outlined and sequential and that it takes up at least 2/3’s of the semester’s courseload. I didn’t think one could just take the engineering courses at various times/years/sessions. Like in my D’s BFA program, the training classes are per year or even per semester and you must rigidly do those each semester. I thought an engineering program would be like that as well which made me wonder how a student could have about 65% of their semester’s coursework be in the BFA and at the same time have about 65% of their coursework be in Engineering required classese for that semester in the sequence.

May I ask who is the “admissions director at U of Mich’s MT department”? I was unaware that there was somesone with that position. The person I know of that handles admissions for the music school and answers questions about admissions for the BFA in MT program is Laura Strozeski. You spoke to a male person and it would be helpful to know who has the position you speak of. Thanks. I see there is an admissions coordinator for the School of Music, Theater, and Dance: Matthew Ardizzone and perhaps you mean that person. I don’t believe there is an admissions person for the BFA in MT program/department itself.

alwaysamom · September 8, 2008, 9:55am

MusThCC, you read my mind! This discussion is reminding me of the political threads in the Parents Cafe. Who knows, perhaps britbrat’s son will be the first student to successfully complete a dual MT/Engineering degree. I wish him well in the upcoming admissions season.

soozievt · September 8, 2008, 10:10am

I don’t think britbrat’s son should abandon this plan at all. If they found out that it can be done, he should pursue it if he wants! It is interesting to learn about what is possible at these different schools. I wasn’t aware this (BFA in MT and BSE) was possible! In my view, it isn’t a matter of talking someone out of it but more to make sure that they got the right information from the BFA programs and it sounds like britbrat has things covered in talking to those folks directly.

Personally, I’m all for unconventional paths. When my daughter was graduating high school a year early and trying to get into BFA in MT programs, many would have doubted it or tried to dissuade her too. Before allowing her to pursue an early graduation, we called each university to make sure their policies allowed for admissions of an early graduate. It has worked out great for my daughter but would not be for everyone.

britbrat1961 · September 8, 2008, 11:10am

So, to put a little of this into perpective and bringing it all back to what this thread was supposed to be about and not a debate about whether my s can be a singing, dancing Engineer :). Let me try to explain a bit of it that might not apply to some or most MT BFA seeking students.

In this particular case, the AP credits that have been or will be completed by the end of the Sr. year of high school are going to “complete” the gen ed requirements for the BFA’s with the exception of an English class. Even the music theory first level courses have been satisfied with AP Music Theory.

What this means is that when you look at any of the “set” curriculum plans for any of the BFA programs, there are “slots” for academic courses. As I understand it, when a student gets credits for those AP courses, they can then “plug in” courses into those slots with upper level ones. In this case, Calculus III and VI and second or third level Physics can used to satisfy the academic blocks.

Having said that, when it gets to the research and lab time that an engineering student does, it is done in those extra sessions or summer, OR it is left for the last 1 or 2 years after the BFA is completed so that the concentration in 100% to the engineering.

This is why the institutions that have the 3/2 engineering plan work well for a student like this. The engineering curriculum is spread out over 3 or 4 years along side the BFA curriculum and then the student transfers to a university such as Columbia (just one to mention several) and completes the engineering research and degree. By this time, the student has completed all pre-engineering requirements and is ready to specialize into the area of engineering that he/she fits best.

Now, as far as the financial impact. Honors students also fit into a different category for aid. There is not only merit and talent scholarship money available, but also honors college scholarship money. Unlike a pure conservatory program where everybody is extremely talented honor student or not, other colleges have money set aside for just the honors students no matter what course of study. Yes indeed the scholarships and financial aid may only apply to the first 4 years of study, but if enough aid is received for the first 4 years, money that was in reserve for those years can be used for that extra 1 to 2 years.

This thought process and research began after visiting Stanford in the Spring where we discovered that there were many students who were coming into the University with good preparation that had accomplished a Bachelors and a Masters in a total of 5 years.

Yes, I realize that the MT BFA is a professional program and very structured and requires a lot of time commitment. All of these things have been discussed in length.

The social aspect? Boys are a bit different than girls…at least mine are. My s gets quite irritated with his g friends from school because they often choose a shopping trip to the mall or a party with their friends over studying and rehearsing. He struck Cal Berkeley off his list after visiting due to the “over stimulation” (as he termed it)on the campus. He also knows that he does not want to be in NYC as he figures he has plenty of time to do that later on. Being in SoCal so close to the “Hollywood scene” makes for a hectic enough experience right now. My s finds the most satisfaction for social activity with his friends in dance or acting classes or while rehearsing for a show or play.

He also is very interested in living in the honors dorms so that he does not have to deal with people up half the night partying. Trust me when he finds time to party he does it, but when it is time to “crack the books”, he absolutely tells his friends…sorry, have to study.

So, to wrap it up. If a student that you know or are giving advise to asks how this can be done?

Preparation start at the beginning of the freshman year. Classes should be mapped out for the entire 4 years of high school at the onset. When doing the planning, the student should look at which AP classes will benefit them the best depending on the “second” course of study. It does no good to “kill yourself” doing AP Calc, Bio, and Physics if you are not planning to pursue a degree that require them. It would be better to do AP Music Theory, Lit and Comp, World History, etc. so that it would satisfy some of the gen ed req. of the BFA degree.

Stay the course, work hard, ask the questions, do the planning and then apply and audition your tail off and see what happens.

Thank goodness colleges and universities can be as different and unique as each of our children are. The options are practically limitless if one is willing to seek out the info.

Hope this helps for anyone who is either assisting a student with similar questions or a student who is reading this who also wonders if and how it might be done.

Good luck to everyone in their individual journey. :)

soozievt · September 8, 2008, 11:27am

Some high schools do not offer AP classes or not very many.

I also think that someone who is applying to a very selective university, even if to study theater, should try to take the most demanding courses they can personally handle and so I would not advise to eliminate courses like Calculus or Physics. My daughter took AP Calculus. The only reason she didn’t do AP Physics is because she didn’t do senior year (the only year at our HS when a student can take that class). I have some students who are applying to selective universities for MT, such as UMich and have no intentions of going into science but they are still taking AP Calc and AP Physics. I know that UMich would like to see a rigorous HS curriculum. Same with schools like NYU.

Again, I do think it is VERY possible to do the pre-engineering courses alongside a BFA in MT at several of the BFA MT schools. That is not the same as doing the full BSE degree at the same time as the BFA in MT over the four years. That was what some of us were wondering if it was possible to do. But doing some of the engineering courses while in a BFA in MT (for the part of the degree that is not in MT but meant to be liberal arts courses) is quite doable and then finish the engineering degree after the BFA in MT. It is unusual but I can see how that could be done, yes. Whether someone who gets a BFA in MT would be willing to put all performing arts aside during the one or two years after the BFA is finished in order to finish the engineering degree, is a personal decision.

Good luck to your son who sounds talented and is a good student with lots of ambition.

MichaelNKat · September 8, 2008, 12:28pm

Britbrat has engaged in a wealth of due diligence that will enable her son to make a well informed decision and there is no question that her son should pursue the direction and path that he feels meets his needs. I wish him the best of success in this regard and none of my earlier comments should be construed to the contrary. Internet discussion boards are often a difficult medium of communication because so many elements of “communication” are missing that it is easy to misread the tone and undercurrents of the bare words.

I think the discussion on the “dual degree/double major” issue has been an important one. It is a complex issue requiring in depth investigation as was done by britbrat. This discussion has served to illuminate the kinds of complexities that exist, the types of questions that should be asked and the concerns that should be addressed if one is considering this path. Each person will find their own ultimate answer based on their particular needs, interests and priorities and that’s the way it should be.

Alwaysamom - If not the political threads in the Parent Cafe, then perhaps the threads on “cut systems” found on this forum? Another emotionally charged discussion about a very important, complex and at times controversial topic about which everyone considering a BFA MT program should be well informed.

Preparing to Apply - Information for H.S. Juniors and Seniors

CONNECT WITH US