I’m sure the high school was plenty rigorous, @MurphyBrown. Courses in college are curved and SOMEONE has to be on the C side of the curve, especially in weed out premed courses. When the 75% ACT scores at schools like Duke and Ivy’s are 35ish, you realize that everyone is bright. Especially the ones pursuing premed. The kid would probably have been at the top 25% of his Chem class at a 50+ ranked school.
Can’t think of a school higher ranked than Duke that has a reputation for being easier, except Harvard. Doubt any school in the top 10 is meaningfully different in difficulty for premed.
Where’d you get that @Much2learn? I do agree that engineering programs are difficult. I have trouble believing an engineering program at Dartmouth will be harder than UMich (or as good). Heck, I’m not sure I believe engineering at Dartmouth is as good as U Dayton. But if they’re both ABET accredited I know they meet a minimum standard and I know (as an employer) they’ll both make about the same in the same job series.
“I do agree that engineering programs are difficult. I have trouble believing an engineering program at Dartmouth will be harder than UMich (or as good).”
I am not familiar with Dartmouth’s program, but watching first hand what Penn expects its engineering CS students to do is extraordinary. I have never seen this level of homework and projects expected of an undergrad week in and week out. It is simply not doable by the majority of students at most schools.
“if they’re both ABET accredited I know they meet a minimum standard and I know (as an employer) they’ll both make about the same in the same job series.”
Yes. ABET establishes a very good base level of knowledge for all engineers.
“I know (as an employer) they’ll both make about the same in the same job series.”
Yes, engineers in the same jobs tend to make similar money. The difference is that the good ones are not in the same jobs. For example, most engineering CS students won’t get through the tougher coding interviews.
Regarding Dartmouth engineering (which is a general engineering major within which students can get some specialization by choosing in-major electives), the ABET-accredited version of the major typically needs one to three extra quarters beyond the usual twelve quarters (four academic years). See http://engineering.dartmouth.edu/academics/undergraduate/be .
There are not too many other moderately to highly selective schools that specify a “normal” ABET-accredited engineering bachelor’s degree program taking more than four academic years’ worth of school enrollment (i.e. not including co-op or other off terms), except for Florida publics (due to the state’s summer session requirement, their schedule templates tend to show eight semesters plus one summer). However, some schools’ engineering schedule templates do include greater than normal numbers of credits per term on average.
For 2014, UF enrolled 6,441 freshmen students. The mid range ACT score was 28-31, which means that the top 25 percent of UF students, or 1,610 students, scored a 31 or above. For 2015, Duke enrolled 1,758 students, with a median ACT range between 32 to 35. Based on these numbers, you can certainly say that the top 25 percent of UF students are competitive with students at institutions like Duke, and that is probably true for most large state flagships.
Is the private school worth the additional cost? Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the kid, family finances, and how much the private is will to discount tuition.
@zinhead " you can certainly say that the top 25 percent of UF students are competitive with students at institutions like Duke, and that is probably true for most large state flagships."
They have some, but I doubt whether it is 25% without gpa and subject test data.
One of the most valuable things about a top school is really the opportunities to get involved outside of class. Is it the students personality to be actively involved in clubs, to go see speakers on campus, to participate in an experience on spring or fall break, to get involved in research, to do internships, to participate in a hack-a-thon, etc. These schools have an incredible amount going on and the students who have the energy to do their schoolwork and then go out and do as many of these things as they can will get the most value from the experience.
The data that we do have, which is ACT and SAT midrange scores, certainly indicates they are the similar. If we go beyond the GPA and test scores as measurements, we run into selection bias issues. Practically any Florida in-state student who could get into Duke could also get into UF. However, into to get into the elite privates, you have to play the admissions game of subject tests, volunteer hours, research, leadership, recommendations, trip to Haiti, etc., etc. If you are a 36 ACT student and have your hopes set on the in-state flagship, why jump through the hoops?
“For 2014, UF enrolled 6,441 freshmen students. The mid range ACT score was 28-31, which means that the top 25 percent of UF students, or 1,610 students, scored a 31 or above. For 2015, Duke enrolled 1,758 students, with a median ACT range between 32 to 35.” Not quite. Duke’s arts and sciences were 31-35 but STEM is more competitive. Duke engineers have a median ACT range of 33-35. Even if you generously assume that those 31+ scores were evenly distributed from 31-36, then only the top 15% or so of the students had scores in the same range as Duke engineers. The reality is probably far fewer.
@mathyone - UF engineering accepts only enrolled students after they have a certain number of credit hours, so we will never know the average test scores in the engineering school. The only numbers we have that match for both schools are the overall numbers described above. Duke’s overall ACT score range is between 32 to 35 according to Prepscholar, and that range makes sense given the split between A&S and Engineering.
However, let’s run with your estimate that “only the top 15% or so of the students had scores in the same range as Duke engineers.” Duke has a total of 1,268 engineering students.
UF has 5,918 engineering students. If your estimate of 15% is correct, about 888 “had scores in the same range as Duke engineers.” If the number is 25% like it is for the overall school, then UF has 1,480 engineering students with “scores in the same range as Duke.”
Take a look at the profiles of the two schools in the links above. You will see that Duke has six engineering specialties. However, practically all graduates study only four specialties, Biomedical, CS, Electrical or Mechanical. On the other hand, UF has 18 programs. If a prospective students wants to study something other than Duke’s limited offerings, they might a find a state school more appealing.
UF’s engineering students would also tend to test better than the average 27 to 31. The actual number isn’t available, since UF admits to the university and not to the college (your major isn’t consider in admissions).
However, lets put that aside. Also, lets put aside the fact that UF’s holistic admissions stresses GPA/Class rigor, over test scores.
Using your 15%, and considering that UF enrolls over 1,500 freshman into engineering, we come up with a number around 225. Duke engineering enrolled 336. So, yes, UF would have, in the ballpark, have close to the same number of high performing students.
Would Duke engineering classes be harder? I wouldn’t think so. They are covering the same material and Duke does a better job of undergraduate education (there is a reason for the $$$ tuition). Duke (or any elite university) doesn’t want you to fail, while it’s more sink or swim at a large public university. I think it all evens out.
Duke is also not immune to the grade inflation issue.
If all other factors where equal, clearly choose Duke. However, that’s rarely the case. My DS17 has the stats for Duke, but they don’t offer Aerospace engineering (Duke only offers degrees in 6 engineering fields, UF has over a dozen), so I can’t talk him into applying. I know others that have gotten into Vandy or Duke, but decided on UF, simply based on cost. I expect that numbers going to continue to increase, with the state of Florida offering full COA scholarships for NMSF/NMF.
If the ops student does get accepted to Duke, they should really look into it, it’s a great program. I think any concerns over rigor, vs a school like UF, or not really valid. If you’re accepted by Duke, you can do the work.
Oh…oh…was writing my post at the same time as @Zinhead
I should note, that I was looking at Freshman numbers, while Zinhead is looking at the overall college. UF’s college numbers are higher, due to transfer students and the tendency for UF engineering students to take up to 5 years to graduate (due to co-ops, Fall/Spring and Summer internships, etc).
Do note, however, an average GPA number doesn’t tell you much about grade inflation in STEM subjects. At some elites, it’s definitively harder to get A’s in STEM classes than STEM classes elsewhere.
I think the grade inflation thing is a bit of canard at the very highest level schools. At a place like Harvard or Princeton (Duke, Stanford, Amherst or Williams) It’s not that the classes are easy or the grading is easy - but virtually every student there is extremely intelligent and driven to achieve. That’s how they got there in the first place. What’s the point of giving a bunch of Cs to students who are working hard and producing top tier work?
I know people who transferred from large state universities to some of the elite private colleges. They said that the caliber of student and the expectations placed on those students was much higher after they transferred. They got As easily at the large schools (which is why they could transfer), and then found they had to take their efforts to a whole new level to compete with the alpha dogs - which is essentially the entire student body at the most elite schools. I think one of the moderators on this website experienced the same thing.
Very few Ivys have strong engineering programs. As far as intensity at the top engineering schools- it is very intense and takes over everything including social life. As they say at my DD school it is like drinking from a fire hose.
There does seem to be some attrition at Duke. If you look at the ASEE page for Duke 2015, there are 279 seniors. If you move to the 2012 page, it shows 337 freshmen in the same class. This is 58 fewer students in the same graduation year, an attrition rate of roughly 20 percent. State school engineering programs are sink or swim, but private school programs are no walk in the park. Other years show similar trends.
"UF has 5,918 engineering students. If your estimate of 15% is correct, about 888 “had scores in the same range as Duke engineers.” If the number is 25% like it is for the overall school, then UF has 1,480 engineering students with “scores in the same range as Duke.”
888, 1480, I don’t think the absolute numbers are that important, but we can agree it’s clearly well in the minority. In terms of being concerned about keeping up with the level of work required or possibly being weeded out, what matters is whether they would be surrounded by kids who came in with higher test scores than they have, or whether the vast majority of the kids in their engineering classes would be comparable or lower. Duke’s own research on their own programs shows that their students who come in with lower test scores are disproportionately weeded out of STEM. And these are “lower for Duke” test scores, still pretty good.
I didn’t comment on the breadth or strength of the engineering programs. I don’t know anything about UF’s engineering. I have toured Duke’s engineering program, although my kid applied to A+S. Yes, there was clearly more breadth in the engineering programs at the larger state schools we toured.
Did OP’s daughter get a 5 on AB calc? How about the physics APs? Was that college stats course calculus based? Is she taking BC calc now and not having any trouble with it? The SAT just one measure of preparedness, and quite possibly not even the best.
That is the argument for pre-med students to avoid the elites and be the top dog at a large state school. It is easier to maintain the high GPA needed for med school that way.
@“Erin’s Dad” That’s the reasoning that they use because it is pretty accurate reasoning. It comports with everything I have heard from people who attended both types of college. Just ask Hanna on this board.
Those elite schools used to be filled with “gentlemen” from Andover and Choate who were coasting by on their money and social prestige. But that was decades ago. Nowadays, they are packed with the hardest working overachievers the nation can produce, and they are rigorous in every program they offer.
And at Ivy’s the grads with engineering degrees tend to go work on Wall Street as quants. So if your D wants to be an actual working engineer then going Ivy may impress her friends and yours, but it may not be the wise career choice.
