PRESTIGIOUS IVY COLLEGE was never a consideration

Parents Forum
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<p>I couldn’t disagree more with Suze’s post. Except for reason #4 which involved taxes and which I found confusing, I didn’t see anything offensive or defensive in the OP’s reasons for not considering Ivy. I also don’t see any reason why asking a question such as “if you didn’t, why didn’t you?” as being either offensive or defensive. It’s just a question. </p>

<p>I’ve known some bright, able, people who didn’t even consider college at all–any college–and the answer to the question, “Why didn’t you consider going to college” can be very illuminating. People’s lives are complicated and they have interesting perspectives and stories to tell. </p>

<p>I have several very wealthy friends who could travel around the world for six weeks or more every year and not feel a dent in their wallet, yet they never leave the country. I’m curious to hear their reasons, and in the process of asking, I’ve learned of all sorts of interesting places to travel to and things to do right here in the U.S. and Canada. </p>

<p>I’ve always wondered why so many California kids don’t just seem to be taking advantage of the public universities in California but actively do not want to leave California for four years under any circumstance. Yes, I understand about the money and the value of a UC education, but I know a number of parents who were not only willing to pay for an OOS experience for their kids, but tried to get the kids to take them up on it and were disappointed when their kids chose the school down the street that doesn’t look all that different from the high school, or a private CA college. </p>

<p>Two of my kids were just as stubborn in the opposite direction: I could not get them to even visit a UC. They’d seen UCB in passing, they’d heard whatever they’d heard from friends and acquaintances, and that was enough for them. Whatever it was they thought they knew, they were not interested in learning more. Childish, stubborn, yes, but they were 16 and 17 at the time. </p>

<p>I’ve often wondered why my own son had such a lukewarm attitude toward Ivy schools. I know why he fell in love with his West Coast U, but I really don’t know why he didn’t even want to visit any Ivies – even the two that he’d planned to apply to if he didn’t get into his ED school. He said he’d visit if he got in; until then, he had no interest. From what I have been able to glean over the years, I think it was simply a matter of Ivy schools not being as much of a big deal in our neck of the woods in CA with the majority of hoopla and angst reserved for UCLA/UCB/etc. – and we never discussed them in the home as he was growing up. We didn’t discuss any colleges as he was growing up; it just wasn’t a topic of conversation. We talked about what people wanted to study, what they wanted to do with their lives, and “college” was the place where you went to explore and pursue those things, and that some colleges did a better job in some areas than others and some would open more doors because of their names, but we never got into specifics. So I think to a great extent, some of the clamor to “go Ivy” come h or high water is conditioning. </p>

<p>In some pockets of the country, it is definitely weird to not even consider an Ivy. In other pockets one kid goes Ivy every two or three years and people back home figure that kid will probably never come back. What’s wrong with wondering and talking about these differences?</p>

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<p>1down–I believe Suze (and Xiggi before) might have been refering to this line:</p>

<p>THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR THOSE WHO ATTEND A PRESTIGIOUS UNIVERSITY TO FLAUNT THEIR PREJUDICES IN FAVOR OR ARGUE THEIR REASONS FOR ATTENDING</p>

<p>BHG–not sure why you think I could make this thread go away. I do think it has use, but I do also wish it had not started out with such animosity, however unintentional.</p>

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<p>Nothing wrong with not wanting to attend an Ivy League school and plenty of reasons not to. But I agree with Garland that the opening thread was needlessly provocative. Indeed, BHG wrote it was “brazen” though I don’t see anything brazen about not wanting to attend an Ivy or a top school. Ivies do not have the monopoly on prestige anyway.</p>

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<p>You are right – I glossed right over that: “FLAUNT THEIR PREJUDICES IN FAVOR” does seem inflammatory. The point could have been made without that phrase, e.g., “…not for those who attend a prestigious university to argue their reasons for attending.” And I do see some value in trying to steer the discussion away from that direction, since that’s a different discussion altogether. In fact, without the inflammatory “flaunt their prejudices” phrase, it could be interpreted as an acknolwedgement that there are good reasons FOR attending. I guess I’ve learned to ignore the way people phrase things in favor of trying to get to what they’re actually saying. And what followed didn’t seem disrespectful or dismissive of Ivy schools–in fact, I could have sworn I saw a nod to the value of Ivy/prestigious grad schools in the OP.</p>

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<p>

Well said. I agree.</p>

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<p>Gosh, why all the heat? I really, really, really don’t want a Lamborghini. You can berate me upside the head as much as you like, and if you work at it long enough you might get me to admit that I’m envious of those who have one (even though none of them seem to live near me), and if you really work me over for a long time, I might even convince my kids to apply for a loan to get one, and if you beat on me for a number of years, bruised and battered, I might convince them to feel bad when they don’t get it. ;)</p>

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<p>Why I Didn’t Consider Any Ivies:</p>

<p>1.) I wanted merit aid.</p>

<p>2.) I like the Midwest. </p>

<p>3.) I wanted to be at least within 4 or 5 hours of my family.</p>

<p>4.) While the intellectual nature of the Ivy league schools was appealing, I don’t like excessive competition, elitism, excessive ambition, and a “work hard/play hard” attitude. </p>

<p>5.) I wanted natural racial and socioeconomic diversity (I’m going to a state school), not the hand-picked utopian diversity of the Ivy League schools.</p>

<p>6.) I want to go to graduate school, so, as others have said, undergrad doesn’t matter as much. This also creates financial considerations.</p>

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<p>ambidexterous: </p>

<p>RE: “hand-picked utopian diversity.” Very nice. I honestly don’t know if it’s a fair description of the Ivies’ policies, but it is great turn of phrase. </p>

<p>1down2togo:
Thanks for that post. I was going to reply to the Suze post, but decided to let it go by. The gratuitous sarcasm aimed at UND – such a place? – was irksome to me. Maybe because one of my son’s friends is planning to attend the Univ of No. Dakota, and yeah, he is taking a lot of teasing from his CA classmates. But UND happens to have an excellent program in commercial aviation and that’s what this young man wants to study. Why should his school be sneered at? The OP’s post, while it could have been worded with more finesse, serves a purpose to allow others to explain why top-notch students do choose to go elsewhere.</p>

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<p>I chose not to go to U of C or to apply to the IVYs and opted to go to a medium sized Canadian school. Although the highly selective schools indicate that they are looking for diversity, their screening process tends to give them students who are essentially alike. After spending 4 years at a suburban school in honors classes with students like myself, I wanted to go to a university with students who represented greater diversity of ability, socio economic background, and life experiences than I would have found in an IVY.</p>

<p>For me, it was a great decision. My professors all knew me, I was given scholarships and a research fellowship, and graduated with no debt. In fact, I had more of a graduate student experience as an undergraduate than I did later when I went to grad school. And I got to meet and learn from all kinds of people–with backgrounds vastly different from my own.</p>

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<p>“It’s not quite that strong around here but the parents and students do put quite a bit of emphasis on getting into Ivy or at least top 25.”</p>

<p>My child is at at top 25 university and said to me today something about not attending a “name brand college” !!! Floors me!</p>

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<p>Momofaknight</p>

<p>Reading your post made me very glad that my kids go to a large public high school.I think pressure like you described is harmful to kids and I am really happy that my kids aren’t exposed to that.</p>

<p>When we went to senior recognition night the school gave out all sorts of awards-academics,sports,class participation etal.They also announced where each award winner was going to school.Vast majority of the kids were going to either state schools or the local CC.</p>

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<p>jpro- in our city it is some of the large public high schools that have the most pressure. Even to get into our flagship state u, the pressure on the public school kids is incredible, since they get an automatic in if they are top 10%. That means they have to load up on AP courses and a B can be catastrophic.
On the other hand, at my son’s boarding school, learning for learning’s sake is emphasized from the beginning. No one takes a full slate of AP courses. (if math isn’t your thing, you don’t HAVE to take AP Calc!) The right fit is emphasized in the college search. While a number of kids wind up at Ivys, there are also athletes heading for other DIs, kids choosing Gettysburg, Vassar, Rutgers and many others. Junior year and fall of senior year ARE stressful due to the academic load, the college application process etc., but not because of pressure to get into a certain school or competition with peers.</p>

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<p>I would be concerned about the college advising if the students in my daughters high school didn’t know about or apply to schools out side their area
My daughters public inner city school, also has teh most AP classes of state public schools, and has comparable numbers of NMS to Lakeside.
THey send many kids to Ivies and other competitive schools every year.
While I appreciate the opportunity my daughter has to take advanced courses, it also concerns me when I hear students making judgements about universities they know little about, because they don’t have the “name” of the east coast schools, & when students talk about taking this or that course because that teacher is an easier grader, even though he requires less work.
I can see where they are coming from though, lately even the state colleges are so competitive that students with decent grades with a college prep transcript from a private school aren’t being accepted to even the lower tiered universities.
Has put the parents of rising juniors into shock let me tell you!</p>

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<p>Momofwildchild</p>

<p>I agree with you that kids are under a lot of pressure junior and senior year of high school.Thats why I am appalled at compounding that pressure by having all that peer competition as well.It can’t be healthful to the kids.
At the large HS my kids go to they don’t have a Val,Sal etc and the reason they don’t is because of how competitive it gets.( they do have a way of recognizing the top students but the kids aren’t worried about how there competition is doing.)</p>

<p>At the awards ceremony I mentioned they gave the top academic students recognition-the kids all seemed genuinely happy for each others success.That to me is healthy!</p>

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<p>jpro:</p>

<p>Pressure does not need to come from competition with schoolmates. It can come from concern over getting admitted into one’s choice (s) of colleges. This is true of schools that do not rank, such as your own HS. Many such schools are in fact high-performing schools whose top students expect to apply to highly selective colleges.</p>

<p>It seems, however, that in states where admission into state universities is tied to ranking and high GPA, there is pressure of another kind, and that is gaming the system by piling on APs and Honors, or, alternatively, taking easy classes in order to get easy As, or even taking study hall in order to maintain a high GPA. </p>

<p>In other words, it is not just the most selective schools that are responsible for the pressure high school juniors and seniors feel.</p>

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<p>Many privates are different and I think in some ways it does reduce the stress of this time. At my son’s prep/private there is no class rank.
The school profile states that only a few students take courses at the honors/AP level. Finally, a gpa is not calculated and included on the student’s transcript as the school feels this too is "distracting " to colleges. His school sends about 30% to Ivies and a bunch more to Stanford, MIT, and the top LACs.</p>

<p>Because of the reputation and rigor of his school, many students with unweighted GPAs less than a 3.0 get into these top schools. There is no shame in a B- or C in AP Junior English at his school. The highest GPA I have seen recorded for any student in this year’s senior class is a 3.6.</p>

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<p>Momofaknight:</p>

<p>For this system to work, I would assume that the school must be known to colleges where students are most likely to apply and the students’ performance must be validated by standardized tests. In other words, it’s okay for the students to get a C in AP-Junior English, but if students consistently score 3s on the AP exams, colleges are unlikely to believe that the C in the school is equal to an A in some other schools. The C will thus be seen as a true C rather than as the outcome of grade deflation. Would you say I am correct?</p>

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<p>marite, I would agree with you. That is the situation in the case of the private school my sons have attended; although it is a very new school, the profile sent to colleges includes facts which put “lesser grades” in context, and yield results similar to what MomofaKnight is reporting. And not to shift the discussion too far into a new direction, but students at the school report that their parents are FAR more stressed about grades and the college admissions process than they are.</p>

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<p>MomofaKnight- Do they really send 30% to Ivys? Isn’t that more than even Exeter and Andover (Haz, help me here)?</p>

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<p>that does seem a really high percentage to Ivies
being as many students that I know don’t even * want* to attend Ivy universities- instead preferring other schools like Swarthmore- MIT- Reed- Stanford- or Uchicago, not to mention schools like Chapel Hill, NYU, Macalester… I wonder if they are really being advised about all their options.</p>

<p>It also gives the impression that either these students are smart and very low income with a " hook" or they don’t need aid-</p>