<p>We have a daughter that applied to Princeton a few years ago (2012) and she went for early action, was deferred and was eventually rejected. She eventually went to Columbia and is doing well there. Her profile was similar but not exactly the same as ambitious and several others that were deferred. Over 2350 SAT, 4.0 GPA, etc. I’ve been monitoring the threads for 2012, 2013 and now 2014. My observation is that Princeton seems to follow that “you need to be smart enough but no more” rule in evaluating people. Once you cross a threshold in terms of GPA and Standardized test scores they move onto other things. But primarily it seems to be whether one is perceived to be some type of notable leader/accomplished person/etc within a certain community – and perhaps more importantly, will this student do something that “can impact the world”. This seems to be a common theme among top ivies, perhaps Stanford and perhaps MIT. While this is ok as a general concept, I think that many ivies have taken this aspiration to a faulty level. At the end of the day, they are academic institutions not nation building entities whose goal is to train the leaders of tomorrow. And even if that were true, the truth is that these universities really do not have a dis-proportionate amount alumni (even Columbia) that go on to change the world. Most of their students are just like those at other schools. As a senior business professional who manages large divisions for a multi-national, I worry that our universities do a dis-service by not recognizing “hard” achievements enough. If you are an academic institution then the key admission criteria in my view is academic results. There IS a difference between someone with a 2200 SAT, 3.6 GPA and a student with a 2400 SAT, 4.0 GPA. The latter student was trying to get those marks and put in the effort to get there. They likely sacrificed being in other activities to do this. If the NFL did this, they might recruit linebackers who aren’t the best but perhaps were the best community oriented people. That’s fine but the team that looked for the best players in terms of sheer competence would probably win the super bowl every year. And a real problem for the US is that we are being beaten in the intellectual arena is many fields (and not just science by the way). Other countries put more emphasis on academic achievements when considering student admissions than we do. It’s hurting us as a nation. My advice to Princeton (and other ivies) is that while your overall goals maybe noble – perhaps its time to shift your admission criteria just a bit and concentrate more on finding the best academics. OK, perhaps should consider other criteria but that should be a small part of the consideration. If you don’t, I predict that your eminence will gradually decline over time as the smartest students look elsewhere and you may end up being the next Dartmouth, Brown. I think Yale is already well headed in this direction (and our daughter did not apply to Yale). </p>
<p>And finally, congratulations to all of the early admission acceptance students. I am happy for you. This note should not be interpreted to mean that you didn’t deserve your admission. You did, and I wish you good luck in your studies. This post is not about sour grapes as our daughter went to a very fine school and is doing very well. But I encourage the Princeton Dean of Admissions and the President to consider whether the pendulum has shifted too far? </p>
<p>@Ambitious19 – I’m honestly so sorry to hear that! Some of my good friends were also devastated about their deferrals from other Ivies. Please don’t give up because you’re a genuinely amazing and talented applicant (who’s an all-around good person as well)! </p>
<p>Update for me: I’m actually fine with being deferred because I know I’m not particularly outstanding and was afraid of being outright rejected. I’m hoping to boost my ECs and work really hard for a 5.0 or close on senior grades and see if that can bring around the adcoms during RD. </p>
<p>In all honesty, Princeton is absolutely horrid when considering its early policies. The only TRUE reason, in my opinion, that they do not reject a bigger percentage of early applicants is to compete with Harvard and Yale. It is well known that the other two institutions at 5.9% and 6.3% have lower acceptance rates than Princeton 7.4%. Thus, in order to artificially decrease their acceptance percentage (to seem more prestigious), they defer more people to the early round. To keep things simple, consider this:</p>
<p>Let’s say Princeton wants to accept about 1000 RD applicants and gets 10000 RD applicants. That is a 10% acceptance rate.</p>
<p>Case 1: They defer 1000 applicants to RD. Now the total pool is 1000/11000, or 9.1%.
Case 2: They defer 3000 applicants to RD. Now the total pool is 1000/13000, or 7.7%.</p>
<p>See what I mean? The more they defer during SCEA, the lower their acceptace rate is during RD. It’s not that they want to give every student the benefit of the doubt. I am sure kids who just applied for the hell of it, were deferred, even if completely unqualified. Princeton has no intention of accepting these kids, no matter what happens during RD. So why defer? The reason above is why.</p>
<p>@lb43823 Looking back thru last years admitted class, one or two actually wrote that they applied for the hell of it-----and were accepted-------with dismal scores. That makes high scoring applicants look like fools when they are turned away. </p>
<p>@rednecktiger This may be true but take CC posts with a grain (or more) of salt. Some posters may not actually be posting truthfully and could be flat out lying to rub salt in the wounds of those who were deferred or rejected. The only way to know for sure is to see their transcript, their college board report and their letter of admission to Princeton. </p>
<p>Observer5, I disagree with your assertion below.<br>
“I predict that your eminence will gradually decline over time as the smartest students look elsewhere and you may end up being the next Dartmouth, Brown. I think Yale is already well headed in this direction (and our daughter did not apply to Yale).” None of these schools are declining. It’s about knowing what you want, and not get got up in the name. My daughter never considered Princeton, Columbia, Harvard…etc. </p>
<p>I write from the point of view that it’s not where you go, but what you achieve from going there. A son went to Dartmouth over acceptance to other Ivy League schools 10 years ago and decided to stay after undergrad. He ended up just fine with MD, MBA degree from Dartmouth, and competitive enough to be in Neuro-Radiology residency in Stanford. </p>
<p>A daughter at Yale graduated with Classics diploma from a boarding school in New Hampshire -“E”. Anyone who knows about Classics diploma from that school will tell you that it’s not easy to achieve that. She had her eyes set on Harvard “H” since 3rd grade but changed her mind in senior year after college visits. She is going for a double major in Classics (Latin & Greek) and Molecular Biophysics & Biochemistry. Yale offers double majors, Princeton - Certificate. She wasn’t going to settle for a Certificate in Classics. So, she didn’t even consider Princeton or Columbia… etc.<br>
She applied EA at Yale and her state school competitive engineering program. Got into both. She will be the first person to tell you to not get stuck on these
Ivy schools. She has friends in “H” who feel the same way. Today, she will tell you she will be equally fine going to Wellesley.</p>
<p>So, please those of you who got deferred or rejected, stay strong and remember that there is a school out there for you. If a school deferred you, then they are betting that there will be someone better in their regular pool. If not, then they consider you. ALL OF YOU ARE GOOD AT A FIRST GLANCE for a school out there. Don’t sit down and wait. Think ahead – graduate school. Get back at these Ivy League schools through graduate school. That’s what matters!! Good luck!</p>
<p>@phoenix786: imho, Princeton is playing game here. Most applicants have perfect GPA, why does the University want to see your academic prformance for one more semester? Do not make sense. Raising the selectivity is my suspect…</p>
<p>I also disagree with @observer5 1) the similarities between Princeton Yale Columbia and Dartmouth are too numerous to list – yet you claim some are on the ascent and others on a decline. But your assumption that they’re in some race with one another is a fallacy, I contend. Brown doesn’t want to be Princeton nor does Dartmouth want to be Yale. Dartmouth wants to be the best Dartmouth it can be. Columbia wants to be the best Columbia it can be. There’s no race – that’s only for the magazine rankings groupies.</p>
<p>2) Whatever deficiencies the US has vs the world – isn’t due to the number of 2200 SAT (gasp) students that Princeton chooses to accept any given admissions year over the 2400 SAT kids they reject. That’s quite a reach. You’re talking about a pool of a few hundred high achieving students. To link that to US decline due to education? I bit of a stretch IMHO.</p>
<p>3) As flawed as USNWR and its ilk, they take into account perceived reputation by other academics. They clearly are blind to your depiction of Princeton’s flaws. Princeton isn’t the salvation of America. They are an old institution that strives to educate some great people. Their course and plan of action hasn’t served them too badly. Unless I’m mistaken, they’ve been in the #1 or #2 spot for the last 25 years or so, i believe. </p>
<p>Hmmmm, some of what @Observer5 says I can agree with some I disagree with. I do think that HYP looks for a certain score and as long as you have that score, you’re good. But I don’t think they are looking for world changers. Instead, I think they are looking (generally) to promote the status quo of preserving old money and prestige. Certainly there is some competition between the schools for 2400 SATs and the world changers (don’t you think Yale or Princeton wishes Mark Zuckerberg had gone to their school) but in the end, I think it is about money and endowments. Were it about changing the world, look at this list of Georgetown alumni:</p>
<p>Certainly, Georgetown alumni are making their mark on the world, yet, the school has no where near the endowment that Princeton has. </p>
<p>Also, I disagree that there is a difference between a 2200 sat and a 2400 sat. 2400 SAT does not measure work ethic. It does not measure teachability. It does not measure character. Thus, recommendations are most helpful for that. In my opinion, (like any elite university cares) a better method of evaluating students would be to do away with student essays altogether–they favor the students who can afford coaches and proof readers (monied applicants) and instead require more letters of recommendation and from recommenders across multiple disciplines. </p>
<p>Well, that was a nice diversion from wallowing in the 4th stage of grief…</p>
<p>Yes there is a facebook group! It’s called “Official Princeton Class of 2019”. Once an admin accepts your request, you can start meeting your future classmates</p>
<p>I think that many of the comments that people made about my earlier blog posting are reasonable. But please note that my main point is that I think that elite universities seem to have shifted the pendulum too far in terms of finding “well balanced people” as their candidates. Fundamentally, I think universities are about academics and that should be the primary criteria for admission. And while I used some examples (i.e. 2200 versus 2400), these were just for illustration, I was trying to make a general point. Nor was I trying to make huge comments about US competitiveness (far be it for me to do such a huge thing). But I think the pendulum has shifted too far in that “soft” qualities have a oversized input into admissions. That’s not to say they shouldn’t be considered but they are supporting factors not the primary factors. Further my analogy and comment about US businesses is that most companies look for domain expertise generally when recruiting people . Yes, you need to be an agreeable person with good character traits etc, but even if you have those, we will primarily judge you in terms of what you know, how well you can execute, etc. Whenever one deviates from the fundamentals, problems arise. And finally (and I do mean finally because I don’t have time to go back and forth), I don’t think there is a huge bust in the system – I just think it needs some tinkering. Anyway good luck to all of you and thanks to those who did comment on my post. I did appreciate the feedback. </p>
<p>Got the grades call as well but to no avail. </p>
<p>5.06/4.0 GPA
2270 SAT
IB Diploma candidate, AP Scholar
book award recipient
1st chair Instrument in concert band, honor bands
marching band (leadership)
President of NHS; national french honor society
Editor in chief of school magazine
Captain of a debate event<br>
Member of a Congressional Youth Cabinet
Model UN
Rho Kappa social science honor society </p>
<p>Intern for a 2014 national congressional campaign
Accepted to/attended a seminar at Oxford university
Accepted to/attended a national summit on civics and American government
Student Government </p>
<p>Interviewer said I was a shoe in and Woody Woo was perfect for me. </p>
<p>^ Yes there’s rhyme and reason, both. It may not seem like it to you, but Princeton knows it will get at least a few other candidates who bear similarity to you, and like all other elite U’s, Princeton is greedy. They want to compare the full list so that they have more from which to choose. That’s all. You’re excellent, but there will be others excellent as well, which is why they’re making you wait. You might have something to complain about if you were rejected. I hope you’re accepted to Woody Woo. I love that place.</p>
<p>Also, be careful of promises or other statements from interviewers. One on another CC subforum (different U) had what she believed was a horrible interview but she was accepted Early. And plenty of students in the last 10 years have had fabulous interviews (they thought, and their interviewer said) but were rejected Early or RD from that college.</p>
<p>@alfawarlord, this is a bit late, but tbh I don’t think you did SIMR. And not that it even matters at this point, but I have good friends in your area (I have a good idea who you might be). Anyway, I wish you an honest future at Princeton, and perhaps meeting your classmates–whether athletes or musicians–may round out your perspective on certain issues a bit. </p>
<p>Congrats to all accepted! I’m honestly so, so happy for you all. You guys are done! Enjoy your winter break and second semester senior year. For the rest of us deferrals, we’ll just keep hoping the best things come to those who wait </p>
<p>To everyone deferred and especially @Ambitious19,</p>
<p>I am a Princeton freshman accepted RD last year, and I wanted to very quickly say a few things.</p>
<p>1) You’re still in the pool! A friend of mine was deferred EA and accepted RD. He had sent the University another rec letter and more materials. Make sure you do this too.</p>
<p>2) You may well be accepted into a comparable school even if Princeton rejects you. The dean of admissions here swears that Princeton doesn’t make mistakes, but that’s just not true. Sometimes, Princeton will reject a candidate whom Harvard and Yale accept. Case in point, my tour guide at Yale had also been accepted at Harvard, but rejected from Princeton. The inverse happens too. A very good friend of mine had an exceptional resume, even for Ivy League schools, but got rejected from H and Y. There’s a random element in admissions, but trust me, you’ll end up loving your school wherever you go.</p>
<p>3) You’ll succeed no matter where you go, even a state university. As a matter of fact, you’ll succeed especially at state school. Another friend of mine says that in her field (pre-med), the bottom third of kids at most universities switch out while the top third overwhelmingly go on to lead very good careers. The ironic part is, those in the bottom third at her school (Yale) would have easily been in the top third at their respective state universities. So, it may all work out for the best.</p>
<p>4) No university’s decision is a measure of your self-worth. Period. You’re all beautiful people with a beautiful future.</p>
True. If your application wasn’t good enough for admission EA and not bad enough for denial, take it as the opportunity to improve your application however you can. You now have a better idea of where the good enough/not good enough division for admissions is.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Everyone makes mistakes sometimes. Someone getting admitted to HY does not mean it was a mistake for P to deny them, though; every admission office is trying to put together an admission class to meet their needs, and you cannot assume that they each need the same thing when they review your application. </p></li>
<li><p>You <em>CAN</em> succeed wherever you go. Whether you do is up to you. And you cannot assume that someone in the bottom 1/3 at Y would be in the top 1/3 at their state flagships; I’d put the top students at public flagships up against anyone at any school. Many of them were also admitted to the high prestige privates but decided to get the free undergrad education instead of going six figures into debt. Makes them look pretty smart when they finish grad school debt free.</p></li>
<li><p>First part True, last part we have know way of knowing (but the discussion here has been very civil and supportive, more so than expected.)</p></li>
</ol>
<p>While the 2200 3.6 and 2400 4.0 have a definite difference, a 2300 3.9 and 2350 4.0 do not really have much difference. 1 or two questions, and one exam could be the differenc in such a case, and there are many other factors that would take preference over such a difference. And Princeton has way more 2300-2400 3.8-4.0 applicants applicants than they can accept, so they have to move onto other things, and there definitely are criteria that they look for. They wouldn’t accept a 2200 3.6 over a 2400 4.0 unless the first student had done something remarkable that didn’t show in those academic scores, while the other student did not. While I think that involving things like race, legacy, etc. In admissions is unfair, I think that they still do put the emphasis on academic success as a prerequisite that they should. We are all entitled to our own opinions though, that’s just mine.</p>
<p>@FCCDAD After reading about the stupendous awards/extracurriculars of many of the people deferred (Ambitious19 especially), many of whom had amazing objective stats as well, I have even less idea what’s “good enough” or not for Princeton.</p>
<p>I guess admissions really is ultimately a crapshoot, and the odds weren’t in most people’s favor.</p>
<p>Just a guess, but if you make it past the “academically qualified” filter, then the next level is probably “application stands out.” I’m sure all the deferrals are academically qualified, else they’d already be rejected. </p>
<p>I can say they should look at how they can improve their applications, because sitting pat will probably mean a rejection in RD. I cannot say what improvements could make the difference, though.</p>
</p>