<p>^ It could be higher than 24%. Not 100% report their ethnicity.</p>
<p>Thank you. (That was to calmom)
I continue to be amazed at the number of otherwise sophisticated, educated adults, who will believe something written in a book, excerpted in a magazine, which claims to be a “study,” claims to be investigative (well, it certainly can be, just selectively so in some cases), claims to be authoritative, even “scientific,” or at least accurate and definitive.</p>
<p>Depends on what you’re investigating, how you’re investigating, how throughly, what your design & methodology are. And when comparing two <em>seemingly</em> similar phenomena or factors, getting your facts & stats accurate is critical. So is not presupposing ahead of time such a parallel, & then fitting your “findings” in to “prove” a hypothesis.</p>
<p>The college admission scene, let alone the political and social climate, of the '50’s, is not comparable to the contemporary efforts of Asian Americans at concentrated enrollment at a very few select schools – not by a mile. The last thing Mr. Golden is, is a historian.</p>
<p>And the poster enamored with Mr. Golden would do well to examine his own (the poster’s) statement:</p>
<p>“The URMs, however, who do those activities can stand out in admissions because relatively few URMs do those activities. (Certainly, URMs who qualify for admission to top colleges will stand out, too, because of their rarity).”</p>
<p>That’s the point. It’s a ratio between opportunity and achievement. And a URM who manages to overcome (if so, and since frequent) the lack of encouragement to achieve in the same areas for which an Asian student receives at least moral support, if not financial support, an elite U will be very interested in. </p>
<p>As to claiming that the thread is full of “misinformation,” and that you will enlighten us all by quoting from a book many on CC have read, these arguments have been discussed & challenged on previous threads over the last 6 months minimum, with specifics as to why Goldens claims relative to todays admissions dynamics are erroneous and in what way they do not hold up.</p>
<p>One year, Harvard’s student body had 17% Asians and 17% URMs reported. The face book had about twice that many Asians (I’m going by appearances) in it. So Asian stats are hard to pin down. Many areas have heavy clusters of Asians and the fact remains that geographic diversity exists. Though Harvard says it does not take any account of how many kids they have accepted from a given highschool during any season or overall, except to note a school they are not familiar with, if there is a sameness to the apps and an area, the natural constrainst just fall into place. The system of regional directors automatically do that. There are a lot of things that are implicit within the admissions process that make it unfavorable for a number of Asian students because so many of them fall into the same categories. </p>
<p>I am at lost to give specific advice to increase the number of Asian kids. To increase the academic hurdle is not the answer. I think those top schools have enough of the top academic kids, and the holistic admissions does bring a vitality that only diversity brings. I would hate to see that go,and I think it would bring down the desireability to go to a top school. I can tell you that the top reason I harbor a (futile at this time) desire for my children to go to HPY is the quality of life for them, and the overall satisfaction and happiness those kids have in going there. Yes, there is that level of trophy attainment lurking in my weak psyche too. But, there is not an iota of desire for my kids to go to MIT or Cal Tech, schools that are icons of academic excellence and it is a true badge of intellectual honor to get accepted and go there. And I fully know and understand that there are many schools where my kids can get the academic excellence that I want for them. It is that “happiness” that admissions, attendance and alumni status of HPY that I crave the most for my kids. To turn those schools into pure academic achievement schools would change the picture drastically. </p>
<p>Jewish culture has changed much from the days when the old Jewish stereotype of the typical smart, musical, ambitious kids with the ambitious parents existed. Yes, the type still exists, but not in the number that it does with Asian kids. And those Jewish kids have the same “discrimination” issues that the Asian kids do. But in our school, we have yet to have an Asian kid on the football, basketball or hockey teams, all hot teams for top school recruitment. A number of Jewish kids, however, and several have and are captaining. And we have a substantial number of Jewish and Asian kids at our school. No Asian kids in the band; the orchestra is majority Asian. A dearth of male Asian voices in the choirs; none this year, nor any in the male a cappella groups. The campus leaders who are the “activist” type tend to be Jewish, I notice, and this passion is one that top schools like when coupled with high academic numbers. So a snapshot of our school show a cluster of highly qualified Indian (from India) and Asian kids who are quietly in the background of activities (except for orchestra) of the school. Just looking the yearbook makes that obvious. The head of the student groups, particularly the more active ones tend to have Jewish type names (I can’t tell who is Jewish; have to guess). Nearly every single kid at that school, if not every kid could do well at HPY, since this population has already been preselected academically. So who the heck should HPY pick from this group/ The very top academically, or those who are extremely well prepared and able academically but have other strong passions and activities that they are showing? </p>
<p>I don’t have advice for Asians who want to know how to up their numbers, either. I don’t think pushing a kid who isn’t into sports heavily in that direction is an answer. On a pragmatic basis, it isn’t going to get them into that top school unless ability and motivation level puts them into the category that they can play college sports. My son is a triathlete, as were his brothers, but that isn’t going to make much difference in his resume, as he is not good enough to play on the college level. I wish he would do some other things but that is what he enjoys—it is his choice of how to spend that time, and I leave it at that. The only advice I give, and it is more in answer to the stories of Asian parental abuse to push their kids to the highest level of academic perfection, than to get these kids into HPY, is that the Nth degree of achievement that such parents are driving themselves and their kids crazy over, is not worth it, and not going to give you the edge at those schools. Better that time be spent on other things to make the kid a more interesting, happy person, even if that isn’t enough to get him into HPY. Takes some stress out of the life, and just maybe that interest can grow into a passion that makes your kids stand out.</p>
<p>Thank you cptofthehouse, for your eloquent perspective!</p>
<p>Most of the postings on this thread have been from the perspective of the “wronged Asian applicant.” Few seem to want to acknowledge what will likely happen to these top universities if they fail to balance their racial/social/cultural enrollments.</p>
<p>Recently, the LA Times ran an article (sorry I don’t have a link) about how colleges are aware of a “tipping point” in their student populations. The theory is that once a school reaches a certain percentage of one gender or race, top students of the other gender and races will no longer apply there.</p>
<p>I know from anecdotal experience that several top white students at our local high school looked at UC Berkeley (48% Asian), concluded it was too Asian, and did not even apply.</p>
<p>I realize this is their free choice, and that if Cal becomes 100% Asian then it is merely the free market at work, but will those schools retain their status as world-class universities if this happens? (You can substitute “Asian” with Black, White, Hispanic, female or male if you prefer.) I am not sure they will.</p>
<p>Certainly true for our DD. Caltech’s 69-31M/F ratio was too one sided and, although qualified and interested in the school, refused to apply. Ended up on the other coast at the tech school with a more diverse popuulation. One data point does not make a fact but Isuspect this is not uncommon.</p>
<p>Asian applicants to columbia and to virtually every Ivy school hav e higher stats than whites. Ivies accept students to their freshman classes on the basis of how useful they are to the school. In other words, what counts is their
“hook”, "tilt " or " tip ". It is true that Columbia has enrolled in the past a greater number of Jews than the other Ivies, but it has never been spared the contagion of anti - Jewish qoutas . NIcholas Butler did not like Jews but he could not resist
the temptation of the ability of more affluent Jews to pay the tuition and to the fact of the large prescence of iImmigrant Jews in NYC in his time.</p>
<p>Here in California, there are students in the UC system who derisively call
UC Santa Barbara and UC Santa Cruz as "white flight " universitties , presumably because of the white students who cannot get into the more competetive UC campuses of Berkeley, UCLA,San Diego, Irvine and Davis and also because of the huge Asian populations in those aforementioned schools. There were 1600 students in the 2005 freshman class at Berkeley who scored above 1400 SAT compared to only 1200 at Harvard. What that means is that Berkeley has more people in its freshman class who scored above 1400 SAT than any IVy school. And that is what makes it a world - class university. So what if Berkeley becomes 100% Asian ?, it certainly would not lessen its status as a world class university compared to these Ivy schools which has qoutas against Asians.</p>
<p>I agree that an increased, even 100%, Asian percentage would not reduce the reputation/quality of the upper U.C.'s. However, for those seeking a fuller freshman exposure/experience, it would reduce the universal degree of that aspect of the attractiveness of a campus. Anyone going to an in-State of any quality already knows that there will by definition less overall diversity in the undergrad student body, because of the preference for residents. When there is a perceived or actual imbalance of one ethnic group over another, on top of regulated residential preferences, one comes close to the “tipping point” effect mentioned above.</p>
<p>Northstarmom ( Polaris ),</p>
<pre><code> Certainly not all Asian parents force their children into these activities. I had never head of these things in the circle of Asian parents that I know.
</code></pre>
<p>"Soft " factos be they defined as being yearbook editor, swimming, tennis lessons, oboe player, captain of the debate team, geographical preferences, alumni legacy preferences, faculty brat preference, choir singer, band member, development cases,children of celebrities, violin player, " good " essays or racial and athletic preferences are never a guarantee of future success in life . They are no better guarantees of future success or future contributions to societythan SAT scores ore high school GPAs. In the past 15 years , the music conservatories of China produced more people who won string and piano competitions thorughout the world than music schools here in the United States. Are you going to start to tell me that the Ivies have a better way of choosing students than schools in China ?. My is view is that the Ivies, LACs and other private schools think that if they cannot keep Asians out of the Ivies thru objective criteria, then they will use subjective criteria like the "soft " factors mentioned above to keep them out of the Ivies.</p>
<p>
I don’t know what NSM will tell you but I’ll tell you that. I’ll start it and finish it. Absolutely. Our system is elite college holistic admissions system is vastly superior in every way for our students and the campus dynamic overall.
I just hate this thread. For what must be the 100th time (and seemingly without making a dent), that is just NOT the total ticket to elite schools in America. If you like the Chinese system and/or feel their selection process is superior by all means apply there. Sheesh.</p>
<p>I’ll say it again, in our system a student with SAT’s 50 points higher and with a fractionally higher grade point is NOT always considered the best applicant for that school that year. Y’all want it to be so. It ain’t so. In fact, the elite admissions system does not search for the “best” applicant. It searches for the applicant that best meets their institutional needs that year. What can be so difficult about this concept?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>*They are no better guarantees of future contributions to society than SAT scores ore high school GPAs. *</p>
<p>Are you serious? </p>
<p>*Are you going to start to tell me that the Ivies have a better way of choosing students than schools in China ?. *</p>
<p>What do we know about the way that students are chosen in China? However, as as small addendum to the point highlighted above, it is blatantly obvious that the adcoms Ivies have an extensive experience on how to evaluate the promise of the SAT and grades and … the contributions to society. Draw your own conclusions as to why so many perfect SAT and perfect grade holders are … flatly rejected.</p>
<p>If China does have indeed a better way to chose its scholars, it must be quite a method. Sarcasm set aside, there is no relevance between the methods, applicants’ pool, and diversity needed in China and at the Ivies.</p>
<p>Epiphany,</p>
<p>So you are saying that if I went to a school where where 99 % of the students are black or 99 % of the students are white and I emerged as the valedictorian I would be harming other people . How would it harm the other students ? would they lose their humanity, would I lose my humanity? . Would I lose my ability to know about good and evil? Would I lose my ability to emphatize, to show my compassion to other people ? If a high school like Monte Vista Hi in Cupertino , Calfiornia is 40 % Asian and those Asians on the average show a better academic performance than whites ( and they actually do, more Asians in that hi school end up in the UCs than whites ), Does that mean that the Asian students do not know anything about compassion or the meaning of good and evil ? Are you telling me that these Asian students know less about good and evil than their white counterparts in that high school? Is there something wrong in doing well in high school ? In getting high SAT scores? Doing well in school specially if you are poor and an immigrant in schools like LIncoln HI or Franklin hi here in Los Angeles is certainly not a crime against humanity by any measure. Is it a crime against hunamity if Asians are overrepresented at Lowell Hi School, Gretchen Whitney, Stuyvesant HI, Bronx Science hi , Townsend Harris hi, Brooklyn Tech Hi, Boston Latin, Hunter College hi compared to whites?
And if whites chose to abandon these very competetive and merit - oriented
hi schools and universities ( in contrast to the Ivies ), whose lose is it then?
Shall we say that what is being masked here are feelings that has more to do with jealousy and frustration…</p>
<p>
I’m not jealous or frustrated. LOL. How about you, kidlat?</p>
<p>Realize that many of our kids would have fared as well or better under the system y’all desire as they had top grades and top test scores, too. While recognizing it would have been a lot less stressful just to apply a formulaic admissions scale to our highest achieving kids (as some on this thread appear to want) , some of us just see a bigger picture. One that encompasses society as a whole. ;)</p>
<p>kidlat,</p>
<p>Not sure if I totally understand your train of thought, but I guess my answer would probably be “yes.” If you are Asian in America and only go to schools that are all Asian (this applies equally to all races), then theoretically you would likely be less compassionate and “humane” to other races/ethnicities/cultures. Provable or not, I think that has always been one of the goals of promoting diversity in schools in America.</p>
<p>OK I tried to add a different perspective to this by starting a thread called Recent Immigrants - how to get your kids into HYPS. To no avail except getting called a bourgeois racist:). Let’s try again. Excuse me for the supercilious comment that follows here, but, try to bring all your brain cells to this.</p>
<p>China’s system works for China because it is a top down society. The tests reveal certain skills and aptitudes. Then those in control pick those people and first allow them to choose their collegse, and then eventually put them into the correct career slots. For the most part. It has been working for China.</p>
<p>The US system works for the US because we are still trying to be a bottoms up society. A democracy. A society in which the famous invisible hand is working, NOT an official or manager. So we value a system which allows the persistent, the creative, the entrepreneurial, the contrarians, even the bull-headed jerks, to flourish and prevail. We believe they bring us capital accumulation and technology innovation.</p>
<p>So. Please, think. Please try to use your enormous capabilities for analysis everyone…</p>
<p>
This is the most succinct expression of the “I KNOW there is anti-Asian bias at the elites” attitude on this entire thread. And I couldn’t disagree more.</p>
<p>It’s not just a matter of misunderstanding of what holistic admissions entails. Or misunderstanding the statistical probability of Harvard needing 470 violinists in their freshman class. Or Princeton needing another 820 neuroscience majors. It a deeply ingrained belief that success porential can be quantitatively measured and an absolute refusal to believe colleges value other indicators of student merit. It is an intractable stubborness and unwillingness to see beyond one’s own values and explore or attempt to understand what others find important and worthy.</p>
<p>The best way to handle it:
</p>
<p>“They are no better guarantees of future success or future contributions to society than SAT scores ore high school GPAs.”</p>
<p>To this statement (which is utterly ridiculous) I would direct you to this thread:</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=263920&highlight=einstein[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=263920&highlight=einstein</a></p>
<p>I guess that since Einstein didn’t do so hot on tests, he didn’t contribute to society, eh?</p>
<p>I think we may have uncovered the most impenetrable element in the known universe. ;)</p>
<p>I’ve operated heavy machinery before and the sound effect for this thread is the sound of a trackhoe with a rock bucket revving up and hitting impenetrable slab rock hard as it can “Roar!! tink. Roar!! tink. Roar!!! tink.” LOL. You ain’t going any deeper when you hear that “tink” sound. That’s how deep your pool is going to be. ;)</p>
<p>Yeah. I know. I find myself wondering if most of the the posters who keep saying the same thing without recognition of previously stated analysis of said thing are actually all the same person…</p>
<p>If so, alu, they are staying pretty busy. LOL.</p>