<p>Hmm. The sad thing is that I myself, I am convinced there is a bias and stereotype of Asians which was built over decades and only now is going to start to break down. Look at the Korean and Taiwanese pop stars, all long tipped hair and sunglasses and sex appeal. Look at Yao Ming, Lucy Liu, Christina Yang. Look at that hurdler. Liu Xiang. Look at James Kim, for that matter. The stereotype will not be able to survive the wave of young people who grew up free and believing in themselves in Asia and who don’t have the cultural background of the Chinese in America and who in many cases have grown up in societies now fully or emerging into their own version of entrepreneurial capitalism…Heck. Look at Bollywood.</p>
<p>So this focus on SAT scores is just ill-advised. And I personally welcome Jian Li’s legal action just because it does break a stereotype, even though I think he’s wrong.</p>
<p>How deeply I resent Post #753. I find all the insinuations in it offensive. I said absolutely nothing about “humanity” or “humaneness.” Like Cur, I’m beginning to dislike this thread. But I do appreciate Alumother’s Post #756. </p>
<p>What I am “saying,” kidlat, is that lots of people like maximum diversity, not just majority ethnic groups, but some URM’s, as well. Some African Americans don’t want to go to Howard or other institutions that are lopsidedly one race. No one said anything about a 99% any-ethnic institution being “less humane,” or the 1% “other” being “less humane.” What a bunch of garbage. No, worse: it’s a flame.</p>
<p>At some point, many students want to weigh the factor of social belongingness & identity against the factor of difference & openness to new experiences & opportunities, new faces, different areas of the country.</p>
<p>There’s a lot of race-baiting in this thread. (Agree with me or I’ll call you a racist, or – hey, “inhumane,” or, pick your insult.) I can spot a trap a mile away, & I don’t like it.</p>
<p>What I would really like to see is any evidence that shows that Asian-Americans do face systematic discrimination in elite school admissions.</p>
<p>What’s been presented:
Asian-American applicants have very slightly higher SAT scores than white applicants.
Asian-American applicants have a lower admission rate than white applicants.
Asian-American applicants tend to be rated lower in personal qualities by admissions officers than applicants of other races.
There are Asian-American quotas in place at top schools.</p>
<p>I dismiss #4 outright, partly because I think admissions committee members actively try to avoid hard cutoffs for anything, and partly because I don’t think they’re stupid. </p>
<p>As for #1-3, I think it’s more parsimonious to assume that the outcomes we observe are as a result of Asian-Americans applying disproportionately to a small handful of schools – there seems to be evidence for less self-selection by Asian-Americans. Students of other races tend to apply to a wide range of schools (LACs, other privates, non-elite publics), while the evidence seems to say that Asian-Americans are more likely to apply to top schools exclusively. That lack of self-selection, in my opinion, could easily account for the lower admission rates and the lower personal qualities scores.</p>
<p>…If we can get back to one of the underlying arguments in this thread, & in another thread (the one about HYPS). I came on to post this when I saw the recent non-sequiturs, which side-tracked me.</p>
<p>This comes up every year on the student forums, is now in the “College Life” forum, (“Gotta Love Asian Parents”), and just now today came up in Admissions, where someone mentioned trying to convince (Asian) Dad that a non-Ivy diploma will not condemn her or him to unemployment. My point is, I respect what padad says as an insider, but I question whether overcoming an immigrant “stigma” is the primary motivator for an HYP diploma. I think the primary motivator, since I’ve seen evidence of it so often on CC, is the prevailing myth that an H, Y, or P diploma (or any Ivy-diploma) is a significant greatly assurance of healthy employment & continued success. There seems to be enormous anxiety around the belief that only a few institutions are pipelines to careers. In view of the fact that many careers depend on graduate degrees or certificates, not B.A.'s or B.S’s, this seems to be steering in the wrong direction. Many non-Asian students are counseled <em>not</em> to seek an undergrad degree in the same institution where they are hopeful of enrolling in graduate school. Many a graduate from a mid-level Public U. or a small LAC has gone on, including recently, to Harvard Law School, Business School, or is now in the Yale graduate program with an intent to teach in Academia. What will land that job is more likely the graduate degree, in those cases, & what may put them in better position for acceptance to a great grad school is graduation from a <em>different</em> college or U.</p>
<p>Really marite? Is that true? I’ve heard that the Chinese are turning more inward–better to take advantage of the opportunities at home. I know a few young grads of Bei Da who went ot the US to get grad degrees. I cannot imagine that they would have passed up Bei Da for love or money…but perhaps you know about different trends?</p>
<p>I meant to say that the mentality that produces Beida or bust (or Todai or bust) is adapted by immigrants into a HYP or bust mentality. BUT, there is also the lure of Harvard, as described by two Harvard students (with Chinese names) below:</p>
<p>Note that “Harvard girl” has sold 1.87 million copies. Enough, I would think, to populate the freshman classes of all US institutions of higher education.</p>
<p>And you are saying countries like Japan, Taiwan are not democracies? and that their system of admitting student has not worked for them ?. China might not be a democracy but the way they admit their students an economic growth rate at 10 % a year. Are you still trying to claim that the way the other countries like japan or taiwan admit students to universities has not produce entrepeneurs, artists , writers etc. ? That is simply sheer nonsense . For the the past 200 years the admissions system of the ivies and many private schools have never been based on merit . It has never been a democracy , it has never been based on talent inspite of the continious pretensions of these schools and their alumni and if has never provided greater social mobiility compared to the public universities. The percentage of students in schools like Berkeley or UCLA have always been higher than that of the Ivies . 200 years have passed and the percentage of students at Harvard with Pell grants is still lower than 10 %. And even though the Pell grants came into existence in the 1960’s , I think you all know what I mean…</p>
<pre><code> I am perfectly aware and it has been a long time that the Ivies care for only 1 and 1 thing , it has to do with their survival. They will only admit a student if they think that student will help them survive. It has nothing to do with the advancement of learning, or finding a cure for cancer, or for the good of humanity or for any other altruistic reason despite the continued pretensions of these schools and many of its alumni. You are admitted to the Ivies because of your partiuclar "hook “,” tilt " or "tip " and not because of your grades or SAT scores inspite of what calmom, curmodegeon or mathmom or marite says. The bottomline of any admissions in the IVies, liberal arts are purely selfish reasons…
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<p>I know from my husband’s experience that “right” school is important when trying to land a job in academia. His solid, but “less than stellar” credentials in this aspect somewhat hurt his chances(despite all his scientific achievements at a time) . Being an immigrant and a “older” PhD student( he was 32 when he came to this country to finish what the collapse of the USSR made impossible to do in Ukraine) didn’t help either . H still managed to find a decent job , but the process was traumatic. For awhile he tried pretty hard to impress on our S the importance of going to the “right” school. Then we realized that we can’t and will not let a pursuit of a certain college dominate our or our son’s life. We came to this country to have a freedom of choice and goddamit, our son was gonna have this freedom. No, it didn’t mean we would let him spend most of his time in front of the TV, yes it meant HE would be in charge of picking his ECs( he doesn’t have many but they are passions) . Actually, some of his ECs became ours. H became quiet a soccer player in his old age. We made sure S is not bored in school but tried our best not to go too far( S was in charge of picking college classes he took through the wonderful Running Start program) . We have a generally happy kid, who wants to have nothing to do with science even if he is good at it. He loves reading, and politics, and history, and is very happy in the Honors Program at our state flagship U . There will be a grad school and HE wants to go to the best one. He knows how important it is. :-)</p>
<pre><code> NO you do not realize the bigger picture curmedgeon, no harm has been done by admitting students soley on the basis of grades and SAT scores. It is your job along with xiggi and the other posters who love preferences to prove otherwise.
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<p>Fine, I agree whether your son graduated from Kiev Polytechnic or Penn State
or Kharkov or Donetsk Polytechnique or Taras Shevchenko University, his happiness is what counts. I am happy that you are not like the many prestige hunting parents who post here at College Confidential.</p>
<pre><code> Few Asians from Mainland China get into Harvard in the undergraduate level are ctizens of the People’s Republic. It is more like that those who attend the undergraduate level at harvard are recent immigrants from China and yet their numbers are constrained by qoutas against by the Ivies. Forget about that book written by those 2 Chinese, when people see the true realities of US higher education then they will take a very different tack. Mainland Chinese at harvard and the Ivies are a very tiny fraction of the thousands of Mainland Chinese studying in US universities.
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<p>kidlat, our S happily attends our flagship U because he “loved his safety” . He probably would be successful at HYPS too but we have imperfect test-taker on our hands, he hates SATs , his results were fine(2170) but far from perfect, so we went pretty conservative in college apps. He was a 100% success but money talked and to FlagU he went, and it was a great choice after all, because he realized that he doesn’t want to be farther away from his parents than 4.5 hour car ride. :-)</p>
<p>The way our elite college admissions works is very different from that of other countries. I would not say better. Different. It is also reflective of how much of our hiring and opportunites work. Once you are done with school, here, your grades and test scores mean nothing most of the time. Many of the things the top schools seek other than the academic scores, are what makes many American successful and emulated internationally. In fact, it can be argued that the numbers that weed out many talented people from colleges are the reason why we have so many out there that are so very successful without the degree. In many countries it is difficult and nigh impossible to be successful in many fields without that academic pedigree. This excludes many creative, and unusual folks who may be the ones who can infuse a new outlook on things. The opportunities here are what draw so many internationals to the US not just for the education, but for the work opportunities later.<br>
I’m not saying that our system will work in other countries. Heck, we’re in trouble in Iraq, among other places because some of our idealistic theories just do not work in other cultures. Doesn’t mean the underlying principles are not right, however. Just not relevant for some cultures.</p>
<p>Considering the upsurge of applications from Asia not only at Harvard but at other US colleges, the trend is only just beginning. Of course, not all 1.87 millions buyers of “Harvard Girl” are going to apply, and of those who apply, even fewer will be admitted. But the mania for name brand is fueling the sales of Harvard books in China and Korea. And the same mania is fueling the obsession with HYP among immigrants.</p>
<p>Your comparison between Asian universities and HYP is totally off the mark. Those Asian universities are public institutions. HYP are private. As well, American universities care about the total college experience, sports, music and all, in a way that foreign universities do not. Finally, there is a great deal more specialization at the university level in non-American universities than there is here. All of this makes a pure stats-driven admissions policy less appropriate for smaller, private American universities which strive to balance many different sets of needs. </p>
<p>You do not know Curmudgeon or any other posters here but you feel free to imply that Curmudgeon is prestige hunting. Ha! I won’t do the research for you. So I’ll let you find out for yourself where his D got accepted and where she is going. Then you come back and talk about prestige-hunting.</p>
<p>marite, this thread has been moving in circles for days, just when it starts winding down somebody new brings forth the same argument and off it goes again. I enjoy following the discussion while shaking my head at the futility of it all.</p>
<p>Gee, I’ve always wanted to be a prestige-(euphemism : “hunter”)! So far this month I have been in the “upper echelon” (or something like that) and now I’m a prestige hunter! Boo-yah! I have been reborn and into a far more chic set, I might add. ;). I feel all Paris Hilton-like. Kind of slutty but still - “I’m in with the in-crowd”. </p>
<p>Have you been to any junior colleges in California? or a Cal State campus? These non-elite publics have large numbers of Asian students. A great number of Asians that I come in contact with have faint ideas of what HYP actually are.</p>
We made sure S is not bored in school but tried our best not to go too far( S was in charge of picking college classes he took through the wonderful Running Start program) . We have a generally happy kid, who wants to have nothing to do with science even if he is good at it. He loves reading, and politics, and history, and is very happy in the Honors Program at our state flagship U . There will be a grad school and HE wants to go to the best one. He knows how important it is. :-)</p>