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Great post, epiphany.</p>
<p>Marian, this is exactly how history IS taught at my d’s h.s. The APUSH course is stretched over a two year period. In soph year it is called high-honors & the continuation in jr year is called APUSH. If you are reading & interpreting the Federalist Papers and a wide variety of historical documents, the course content is much deeper thatn just a deluge of factual details.</p>
<p>Yes, it would be wonderful, Epiphany, but even in a program like the one SS’s daughter took, it takes a certain amount of maturity to fully understand such things. While some hs students are able to do it better than others, they are still teenagers without the life experience needed to deepen their connections to the world. Those who grow up early are probably the ones the elites seek out - for exactly the reasons you cite.</p>
<p>I think my son has the level of knowledge epiphany is talking about through a combination of coursework, travel and lots of outside reading and I think it gives him an incredible framework for integrating new knowledge and just understanding things in a broader sense. And there must be a lot of other HS seniors like this too, but I know very few of them. Not too many adults either (and I regret to say that I’m much less well-informed than my son, partly the result of bad teachers and an unusual college education, partly my own fault).</p>
<p>SS, this is ideal. More h.s.'s could adopt a longer time frame toward some topics, but particularly in the arenas of history & literature, which require some length for a fuller apprehension of the concepts therein.</p>
<p>Yes, bethie, mwfn, & others, I do understand that age is a factor. I was partly being a little provocative, but to make a point that <em>because</em> maturity (the long view) is necessary when it comes to historical perspective, decisions about admissions are not left up to 16-18 year-olds, some of whom come to CC believing they fully understand. The issues I referred to above, & which surface in the controversies over admissions are not dictionary-definition phrases; they are complex social, political, & legal concepts. While there is not the time in some (probably most) h.s. curricula to investigate what a good law school curriculum would tackle, it is important that even h.s. seniors understand that they are indeed complex issues, not college admissions sound-bites.</p>
<p>But I will mention that I had a better understanding of some of these concepts myself than some (not all) CC students have shown. I think of late there has been an over-emphasis on volume/breadth at some schools, an under-emphasis on depth. That’s nationally, too, not limited to particular regions or schools.</p>
<p>I could name five Asian Americans who have made great contributions to America–and they happen to be friends of mine. I could name five others who happen to be writers. I enjoy reading Asian fiction. Understanding recent Asian history through Asian fiction --and the odd non-fiction–has been a two decade-long passion of mine.</p>
<p>I could name several great Asian American architects–one of them a woman (Billie Tsien). </p>
<p>Among the Asian Americans I know well, a few are tremendous philanthropists and others are mong the most compassionate members of their communities. My life would be that much poorer without it’s very strong Asian component. My professional life would have been vastly poorer, figuratively and literally, without it’s Asian influence.</p>
<p>However, I still believe Asian-Americans are well represented at elite universities.</p>
<p>Whoops ran out of editing time.</p>
<p>However, the mutual understanding between Americans and other Asian cultures could be improved. We have so much in common–but there are also invisible differences which confuse us.</p>
<p>Recently, I’ve finished reading a book called ‘Oracle Bones’ by Peter Hessler–a 2006 update on ‘Iron and Silk’–with a touch of interesting historical scholarship thrown in. In the book, the author quotes an academic named David N Keightley. </p>
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<p>Hessler goes on to say:</p>
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<p>Int heir quest to participate in modern culture, the Chinese have tried to embrace some versions of Western athletic ideology.</p>
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<p>Perhaps some of the complaints about Asian students–and Asian parents–can be better explained by a deeper understanding of Asian history and culture. I am not sure where that fits in the hs curriculum however!</p>
<p>Cheers, as an asian-amercian, I only want to be treated as an american not as an ethnic minority. The world at large does not viewed IM Pei as an asian american. He is just an american architect who redesigned the Louvre entrance among others. Yo Yo Ma is just an american cellist. We viewed Ang Lee’s role in Brokeback Mountain simply as a film director. I can list on and on. What is important is that statements like “Asian-Americans are well represented at elite universities”, put an unnecessary ethnic component into the selection system. I would have no problem with statements like scholarly nerds, atheletes, rich or poor etc being selective criteria, but not ethnicity because an asian american applicant can fall into each of the above categories. What is important is for asain american students to feel that they are being evaluated just like any others without ethnicity being a component. </p>
<p>BTW, two family members have been admitted to Princeton ED this year. Our family celebrates not becuase it is an HYP, but because these kids want to go there to follow their father’s footsteps and certainly not because they are or are not asian-americans.</p>
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<p>Padad, who is bringing up the issue of race? </p>
<p>After hundreds of posts in this thread, we are simply back to square one, which the position of NOT accepting that Princeton made a correct --and legal-- determination by rejecting Jian Li. Because he CANNOT accept the result of the holistic process, he decides to file a complaint on the sole basis of racial discrimination. Thousands of students are rejected by Princeton every year … is this case really that different? </p>
<p>Further, because he cannot obtain a racial ADVANTAGE, he wants the advantages to be abolished for ALL others. And, you’re not exactly correct in stating that all that is wanted is to be treated equally. The correct claim is “Why can’t I be treated as a minority and hence a URM” and only then “If I cannot get the benefits as I used to, I want them to stop for everyone!”</p>
<p>Alleging that non-minorities are not treated equally is a lot harder than demonstrating it with facts. Unfortunately for Jian Li, the OCR deals with facts and not mythical tales.</p>
<p>“I would have no problem with statements like scholarly nerds, atheletes, rich or poor etc being selective criteria, but not ethnicity because an asian american applicant can fall into each of the above categories. What is important is for asain american students to feel that they are being evaluated just like any others without ethnicity being a component.”</p>
<p>(1) And an African-American, European-American, Hispanic-American, etc. can similarly, and no less than “fall into each of the above categories.” It is understood (explicitly) that economic factors, for example, are not limited to a particular race or ethnicity, although until more recently this was unevenly recognized by colleges.</p>
<p>(2) The lively discussion on the Admissions thread, “I Wish I weren’t Asian,” includes contributions by an admissions officer explaining the very reasons why ethnicity, and race, are viewed as important components in the selection of an incoming class, in and of themselves, rather than as categories defining, predetermining the qualities & circumstances & expected contributions of those applicants.</p>
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<p>I find it interesting that this author excluded Olympic weightlifting from his list of sports.</p>
<p>At last year’s World Weightlifting Championships, China won 11 medals, 7 of which were golds (2 men, 5 women).</p>
<p>At last year’s Asian Games, China won 14 medals, 10 of which were golds (4 men, 6 women).</p>
<p>This is a sport that requires strength (and flexibility, balance, coordination, guts), hard-core competition, and yes - drugs that may or may not be approved by the IWF.</p>
<p>There was a short lived reality show, Black-White where families got makeup to pass for another race. What if someone did that in an interview and did not fill out their ethnicity? That would be something.</p>
<p>I know a kid who is Indian, but is claiming he is half African American just to help his apps. The whole thing disgusts me.</p>
<p>Now, regarding the main discussion on this thread, I think that Princeton and any other college should look at an application as a whole and not just the numbers alone. I know a kid from Taiwan (has green card here) who just was accepted to an ivy but his rank and standarized test scores are below people who were deferred. In his case, knowing the kid and the others, I think the ivy had it right. The other kids, since they were in middle school, go home after school every day and do 100 math problems. They also do this quite often in the summer as well. Their parents make them do it. They also have taken their high school math classes ahead of time at a different school in the summer, so they know the material better than the class. Everything is math; no significant leadership or EC’s. If need to write a paper for English or History, they have huge problems. Now, this is not meant to apply to Asians everywhere. But in our school, with the exception of 2 kids, it does apply and the ivy in question, I believe, picked the right kid because he did have significant EC’s and didn’t need to take classes ahead of time or do math problems constantly; the kid is just smart.</p>
<p>If the Indian kid is lying about his heritage, then colleges could rescind admission or even his degree if they admit him before finding out about his lie (which is very likely). </p>
<p>There is a chance, however, that he is half black. I know some people of African American (or Afro Caribbean or black African)/Southeast Asia Indian heritage who look 100% “Indian” to me, but really are half black.</p>
<p>Anyone can lie on apps. The risk is if you get caught,you can lose it all, and be blackballed to boot. When you are clearly in the running for top schools, you are going to get something good, maybe not exactly what you wanted, but you are not going to be out in the cold. If you lie, that is exactly what can happen. It is a risk, and if someone is foolish enough to take it, he assumes that risk. We have crime in this world because people do break the law and do dishonest things. It is no surprise that this goes on in the world of college admissions too.</p>
<p>Northstarmom, no he isn’t half African American. He is laughing about this latest ploy and tells kids, there is no way they can find out.</p>
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There are lots of criminals behind bars from running their mouths. He’ll get caught. :)</p>
<p>“I think that Princeton and any other college should look at an application as a whole and not just the numbers alone. I know a kid from Taiwan (has green card here) who just was accepted to an ivy but his rank and standarized test scores are below people who were deferred. In his case, knowing the kid and the others, I think the ivy had it right…the ivy in question, I believe, picked the right kid because he did have significant EC’s and didn’t need to take classes ahead of time or do math problems constantly; the kid is just smart.”</p>
<p>Your Honor, I rest my case.</p>
<p>(This is called holistic admissions!) It wasn’t his scores. It was his smarts. The Ivy had ways of figuring it out, from other aspects of the application. Occasionally a college will not “get it right,” but more often than not, they do.</p>
<p>Which is not to say that quite brilliant people are not deferred, waitlisted, etc. There is also the concern about duplication of region, interests, e.c.'s, & what not, which can affect admissions. Those are hair-splitters, but the above example is not.</p>
<p>curmudgeon, the other students and teachers are often saying that they fully expect to someday read about this kid involved in some scandal.</p>
<p>That’s not that much difference. 50 points difference is probably due to random multiple choice guesses.</p>
<p>someone said: “If need to write a paper for English or History, they have huge problems.”</p>
<p>I know this for a fact also. They have no creativity or writing abillity. Jian Li probably failed the writing parts of the tests and got a perfect only in the math because his parents made him study hard.</p>
<p>Wake up! colleges are looking for other traits such as creativity and artistic abillities.</p>