Princeton answers to Jian Li claims

jsmith14921999 · February 15, 2007, 8:13pm

Jian li went to yale which is a good school.

Even if he got discriminated by Princeton, he should just keep his mouth shut.

fabrizio · February 15, 2007, 8:24pm

It strikes me as weird that a poster with an intricate user name decides to resurrect an old thread with two provocative posts.

On the slight chance that the user is actually serious and not purposely trying to flame, I have a few things to say.

It is unjust to degrade the achievements of an applicant simply because he is of a certain race. To my knowledge, no university or college actually does this. The admit rates, however, reflect a de facto fifty point deduction. That is, while no points are removed, it’s “as if” they are.

Such a policy is inherently discriminatory and should be opposed on principle. Taking points away does not create a “level playing field” for anyone.

The pronoun “they” is used in Post 940 without a previous noun reference. I will assume that “they” refers to Asians, as this is the group disdainfully mentioned in Post 939. As far as lacking both creativity and writing ability, this is a racist assumption at worst and ignorance at best. The following sentence demonstrates complete unfamilarity with the Li Jian case, as he earned a 2400 on the SAT, which necessarily means that he earned a 800 on the writing section as well as the critical reading section.

A few months ago, this post would have made my blood boil. After discussing with redemptive liberal parents, however, it wouldn’t surprise me if this user actually felt this way. After all, affirmative action is only issue where the “right” thing to do is to discriminate.

gh05t · February 15, 2007, 9:59pm

There is a difference between a prodigy and a mediocre person who is pushed by their parents.

jsmith14921999 · February 15, 2007, 10:00pm

Hey fabrizio,

i am sorry if i sounded racist to you. Looking back at my own posts, I feel ashamed at how ridiculously racist i sound. Maybe i was doing this unconsciously.

You are write about the test scores. I looked it up and jian li got a perfect on the writing. I guess it really doesn’t matter what he got compared to other asians, or even if he had other extracurricular stuff. Or even if he went to Yale instead.

If I were black, and was told to drink at a different water fountain, and that water fountain that i was told to go to had evian flowing through its pipes, I would still feel that I was being discriminated against.

I came to these new conclusions after a debate on another forum, in which someone posted this link:

<a href=“Postcolonial Studies – Since 1996, Deepika Bahri has created and maintained content for Postcolonial Studies @ Emory with her students. In 2011, she won a Mellon grant from Emory’s Digital Scholarship Commons (DiSC) to redesign the site in collaboration with the DiSC staff.”>Postcolonial Studies – Since 1996, Deepika Bahri has created and maintained content for Postcolonial Studies @ Emory with her students. In 2011, she won a Mellon grant from Emory’s Digital Scholarship Commons (DiSC) to redesign the site in collaboration with the DiSC staff.;

It really opened my eyes to my own racist unconsciousness and latent racism with which my words were tainted.

I now believe that admissions should be based on testscores, grades, extracurricular activities, and recommendations, conditions by which Princeton would have undoubtedly accepted Jian Li if race were not involved.

fabrizio · February 15, 2007, 10:21pm

I accept your apology, and I myself apologize for the insult in the private message.

I see that race is not one of the factors. Even if it were not one, it is still possible that Li Jian would be denied admission. However! His rejection would then have nothing to do with his race! This is important.

If I’m told that I’m not good enough, I’ll feel bad, but I’ll try harder.

But, if I’m told that “hey, you’re a boring guy. I knew that before I even read your essays and looked at your recommendations. Your hair, eye, and skin colors tipped me off a mile away,” then that’s a different story altogether.

Bay · February 15, 2007, 10:25pm

Yeah well, that’s not the story of what happened to Jian Li at Princeton either, is it?

epiphany · February 15, 2007, 10:57pm

“Even if it were not one, it is still possible that Li Jian would be denied admission.”

Precisely. 
In Princeton’s reply (the title of this thread), the indication was that he was not quite as competitive/outstanding a candidate as those admitted were. Not that he was not a URM, not that he was being measured as to whether he was an outstanding Asian. Since many of the perfect scoring applicants are Caucasian, but many of these are similarly rejected every round, factors other than race would appear to be more determinant in the ultimate decisions.

k_amp_s · February 16, 2007, 12:37am

I guess Princeton, unlike Harvard, Yale or Columbia, doesn’t consider Jews to be well-rounded based on a holistic standard.

epiphany · February 16, 2007, 12:55am

Jews don’t get into Princeton?

I know a number of them, actually.

k_amp_s · February 16, 2007, 1:09am

Well, if Jews are as well-rounded an applicant pool as you seem to think - why is their % make-up of the student body at Princeton SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER than Harvard, Yale and Columbia?

Btw, way to go with that totally ridiculous post.

cheers · February 16, 2007, 6:28am

IM Pei is viewed as a Chinese architect around the world–particularily in Asia. He promotes his Chinese heritage in Asia. He spent his formative years in China and Hong Kong as the son of hugely prominent bankers. He moved to the US in 1935 when he was 18. Though he has spent many years in the US as a citizen, he is a very courtly Chinese gentleman, first and foremost. I’ve met him. It would be impossible to treat him as an ordinary American.

I remember when the Louvre addition was under discussion. I saw the comment books in the L’Oragerie. I’m not sure the French view him as ‘American’ precisely.

Yo yo Ma on the other hand, moved to the US when he was a small child. He acts and behaves like an American.

I understand your desire to be American first and yet I don’t understand it. Do you realize how lucky you are to even be able to claim that privilege? I’ve been a long-time resident of two different foreign countries–including one Asian country. At no time did I feel that I would ever be viewed as an true countryman of either country–but in particular the Asian country. Westerners cannot ‘become’ Asian. Westerners cannot be accepted as ‘Asians’. The thought is laughable.

America is a different case. The melting pot. It is indeed a wonderful experiment that gives you–and millions of other immigrants-- the chance to feel American rather than Asian–or American on top of being Asian. It’s crazy! And it’s great.

That experiment includes maintaining a racial balance at our elite universites–a balance that would be upset if affirmative action was dropped and simple stats replaced a ideological matrix.

I’m not in favor of that change. I think the universities have contributed to the racial redress that has happened over the past four decades–and I am anxious for that redress to continue.

Congrats to your family on their Princeton ED acceptances, padad. That is a rare accomplishment. May they make the most of that good fortune.

fabrizio · February 16, 2007, 8:19am

cheers,

It would be “impossible” to treat Mr. Pei as an “ordinary American” because he emigrated to the United States after spending his entire youth in Asia. Mr. Ma, on the other hand, is a French national born to Chinese parents who emigrated to the United States when he was still in his youth. At age seven, it is not difficult for one to acclimate to new surroundings (c.f. at age eighteen).

Of course Westerners cannot “become” Asian. There are distinct phenotypic differences. They can, however, be accepted, respected, and loved. You’d be amazed to know what kind of respect fluency in a foreign language gets you.

I’ve said it several times. I’m not an immigrant, and that’s why your examples of Mssrs. Pei and Ma are imperfect. I was born here to Chinese immigrants. I’m an American citizen by birth and ethnically Han by the hands of fate.

I am American first. This is the country where I first breathed, and Allah willing, this will be the country when I will breathe last. This is the country that I respect, love, and am proud to be a part of. Acknowledge that I am an American national, and you will know why I desire to be American first.

It’s not a privilege to be born American. It’s an honor, thank you very much.

“That experiment includes maintaining a racial balance at our elite universites–a balance that would be upset if affirmative action was dropped and simple stats replaced a ideological matrix.”

At least you are honest enough to admit that your concept of racial balance and diversity relies on racial preferences and preferential treatment. I respect that. I tell you this, if you can find a way to achieve racial balance and diversity without resorting to racial preferences and preferential treatment, I’ll support you.

Oh, and one more thing - I’m not against essays, recommendations, and extracurriculars being a part of the admissions process. I am against race, however, but you knew that already. And, now you finally know that I’m American by birth.

mathmom · February 16, 2007, 8:23am

Here’s one plausible reason: Historically there were fewer Jews at Princeton than at Harvard, Yale or Columbia. Therefore there are fewer legacies. And legacies get accepted at a higher rate.

I’m also not convinced that there are as many Jews applying to Princeton as to the other Ivies.

fabrizio · February 16, 2007, 8:24am

epiphany,

The key is that if race were not a factor, then one has no right to complain that one was discriminated against based on race. That would be clear. Under the current system, that is not clear. Universities deny such allegations but refuse to drop their support for racial preferences.

Interestingly, it is the most radical redemptive liberals and grievance elite members who are also the most honest. “Moderate” redemptive liberals and grievance elite members (oxymoron?) prefer to shy away from terms like “racial preference.”

Affirmative action wouldn’t be such a laughingstock if its supporters were honest in how it is applied.

epiphany · February 16, 2007, 9:20am

cheers,
That post was eloquent, i.m.o. I agree with every sentiment in it.

Fabrizio,
(“It’s not a privilege to be born American. It’s an honor, thank you very much.”)
In your case, it’s both, actually, since you admit to the latter, it does not negate the privilege asepct. It is that aspect, & the lack of recognition of that by many posters on CC (i.m.o.) that is also an isue.

mathmom,
indeed. I realize the same. (Fewer applications.)

epiphany · February 16, 2007, 9:28am

I wonder if it is “totally ridiculous” to paraphrase Princeton administration or whether it is “totally ridiculous” to state that Caucasians include the pool of perfect scorers rejected by Ivies every year.

It is not totally ridiculous to state that Princeton did not find Jian Li quite as compelling an admit, because they had all the applications within which to compare. You don’t. I don’t. Doesn’t matter how well anyone personally knew, or knew of, any applicant. It is, every year, a real-time competition less dependent on the applicant’s profile per se but the comparative profile of him/her & the entire pool. There is no such thing as a stand-alone “qualification” for a college/U.

Momwaitingfornew · February 16, 2007, 9:32am

“prefer to shy away from terms like “racial preference.””

It’s all in the semantics, Fab. “Racial preference” means the one race is deemed more desirable than others, which isn’t the case at all in college admissions. Such a policy would result in acceptance just because of race, not because race is one of many factors. The college must first determine whether the applicant is capable of doing the work – and keeping up with more privileged classmates – before he becomes a viable candidate. Because many of us have seen URMs rejected from the elites, we know it’s not a blanket acceptance. It riles me to see comments on CC such as “Ur in because you’re URM.”

If you changed your terminology to reflect what really happens, those of us who are “moderates” would be less likely to quibble with you. I understand that you don’t want race to factor into admission, and you understand that I think it’s important, to some degree. However, your use of the term “racial preference” is inflammatory. It’s the same kind of semantic tactic as “pro-lifers” labeling their opponents “pro-abortion,” when such a description does not accurately reflect the philosophy.

JHS · February 16, 2007, 10:06am

A couple of comments on some of these interesting recent posts:

Jews at Princeton: Of course there are Jews at Princeton, there have been Jewish presidents, I know numerous Jews who have been students there, and my family is close to a Jewish trustee. However, I remember that when I was applying to college there was a fascinating anomaly: Among the men at Princeton, the percentage of Jews was half what it was at any of the other Ivies, and about what it had been for the past 15-20 years. However, Princeton had just accepted its first two classes of women, and – Glory be! – the percentage of Jews among the women was pretty much exactly the same as at Harvard and Yale. That difference was widely interpreted – at least among the Princeton students of the time who told me about it – as proof that Princeton had been capping Jewish admissions for years, but had abandoned the cap for women because it wanted the most qualified women available. I know Jewish admissions went up at Princeton in subsequent years. I certainly don’t believe anyone at Princeton sits around a table and says “Let’s not take any more Jews” (or Asians).

But those sorts of things do tend to be self-perpetuating. I know at my children’s school – where a large proportion of the top students tend to be Jewish or Asian – there is a perception that Princeton doesn’t like them (although I haven’t heard them say that Princeton doesn’t like them because they are Jewish or Asian). In my daughter’s class, the two most attractive candidates (one of whom was Jewish, the other Albanian) were both accepted everywhere they applied (including Harvard EA, Yale, and MIT) EXCEPT Princeton. Very few kids apply to Princeton for that reason, notwithstanding that objectively it should be very attractive to them. (Many of the immigrants affirmatively value being close to home, and you can get from anywhere in this city to Princeton in 1-2 hours on public transportation.) I have heard that kids from Stuyvesant and Bronx Science have the same folklore. And the legacy point is valid, too, but not very exculpatory.

Americans in Asia: I have known two (Caucasian) Americans who spent a significant part of their careers in Japan. One was an officer in the occupation force after World War II, and then headed the Japanese office of Morgan Guaranty for 20 years from the mid-50s to the mid-70s. The other is a cousin (and contemporary) who spent 14 (out of 16) years there from age 20 to age 36 (circa 1980-1996). Both spoke Japanese fluently; both loved Japan and Japanese culture. My cousin went through long periods where her social life was almost completely with native Japanese. And both told me that the longer they lived there the more they became convinced that they would never be accepted fully. In my cousin’s case, it was really the hard-won, and heartbreaking realization that she simply was not going to be acceptable as a marriage partner for an ambitious Japanese man, although she had at least three longish relationships with men she would gladly have married.

I don’t want to generalize about “Asia” from the very specific reality of Japan, and I’m sure Japan (like, perhaps, Princeton) is changing. The only point is that fluency, respect, and even love can have real limits.

fabrizio · February 16, 2007, 10:57am

Momwaitingfornew,

In order to convince me that you do not support racial preferences, tell me that you would tolerate a ban on them.

Basically, tell me what is wrong with the following paragraph:

*The state shall not discriminate against, or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting. *

If you can tell me that it is wrong to grant preferential treatment to an individual on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin, then I’ll be thoroughly convinced that I am mistaken and you are not a supporter of racial preferences.

If you don’t think it’s wrong to do so, however, well, then, we just plainly disagree on the definition of equal treatment.

mathmom · February 16, 2007, 11:05am

Much the same thing seems to be happening at our high school. Few apply to Princeton and even fewer who are accepted matriculate. Harvard, Cornell, Columbia and Yale get easily 10x more applicants. I think Princeton is perceived as being overly preppy.

Princeton answers to Jian Li claims

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