Princeton answers to Jian Li claims

fabrizio · February 16, 2007, 11:07am

This is true in Asia and in North America.

I mean, there’s one parent here who still refuses to acknowledge the fact that I was born here, even though I’ve told her several times before.

To recount an anecdote from last year…

…I was in my high school’s library. Two guys came in, both of whom I knew, and sat across from me. The first person, (Person A), started joking with me. It was in good faith, so I joked back. He laughed. The second person, (Person B), looked at me, and then asked Person A, “Hey, what did he just say?” Using the same words I used, Person A repeated my joke to Person B, who then said, “Oh.”

Person B has consistently claimed not to understand my English. I have met with him on several occasions, and every time it’s the same. I could be standing right next to him and speaking above normal volume, but he’d still say, “What? What did you just say?” and make a face. (Even though I am a native speaker and am understood by all of my friends.) Person A has never had any problems. Both of them are Black and natives of the city where I live.

I can only assume that Person B deliberately chose not to understand my English. It is a personal affair and not evidence of group-to-group racism since Person A understood everything I said.

So, of course, fluency, respect, and love are limited. No contest.

k_amp_s · February 16, 2007, 2:08pm

Cheers - America (and certain other countries built on immigration) are an entirely differently matter.

In Europe, immigrants (esp. those with darker skin) aren’t exactly seen as Frenchmen, Germans, Swedes, etc.

And even in a “liberal” country like Sweden, other Europeans (Poles, Czechs) and even other Nordic peoples (Fins, etc.) get discriminated against - so the comparison (of the US) with Asian countries isn’t entirely analagous.

And speaking of Asian-American architects - let’s not forget the uproar over Maya Lin (who was born in Ohio, btw) winning the Vietnam Veterans Memorial design competition for not “being American.”

Btw, what is acting “American”?

Mathmom - I’m also not convinced that there are as many Jews applying to Princeton as to the other Ivies."

When the former Dean of Admissions at Stanford was hired at Princeton, he instituted a “holistic” admissions standard and consequently, the % of Jewish applicants who were admitted dropped.

Some here have argued that the rather large disparity in admit rates for Jews and Asians is due to the the more limiting interests/activites, etc. of Asian applicants (nevermind, that roughly half of Asian applicants, the size of that of Jewish applicants, are “whitewashed” Asians and have the “American mindset”) and that a (significantly) higher % of Jewish applicants (than Asian applicants) meet the holistic requirements that these elite schools are looking for.

Either Princeton has a dramatically different interpretation of “holistic” or Jewish applicants aren’t as “well-rounded” as some people here have argued.

And let’s not forget the admissions officer who has emphatically stated that Asian applicants don’t face any type of discrimination and yet, has stated that Jewish applicants do (despite Jewish applicants being accepted at a rate multuple of that for Asian applicants).

Let’s not kid ourselves. There’s a reason why only 3% of the 117 Div-1 football coaches are African-American; why it took so long for black FB players to get to play the QB position (and even today, they are typecast as "running QBs); why we see a pattern of “white flight” when significant nos. of minorities move into a neighborhood; why studies have shown that interviewers, thinking that their interview subjects were Asian (when they were actually white) scored them lower in communication skills, personality, etc. than when they thought their interview subjects were black (again, actually were white); etc.

These biases exist throughout society (whether people are cognizant of them or not) - so why would college administrators be immune from them?

Momwaitingfornew · February 16, 2007, 2:24pm

Fabrizio, I am not “for” preferential treatment because of race. I would be dead set against individuals being admitted (or given jobs or anything else) based solely on their race. If you talk “racial preference,” you are essentially saying that the race trumps all other qualifications, and that simply isn’t so.

What I am for is diversity – and if that means identifying and accepting students of different backgrounds, including ethnic ones, then I’m all for it. Note that I’m not saying specifically that blacks should be accepted at higher rates, or that Asians should be accepted at lower rates. I am saying that in the interest of creating a diverse student body, sometimes cultural and ethnic factors should come into play, just the way geographical, academic, and EC diversity do. At universities where blacks (I’m avoiding African-American here since that terms excludes many groups) are well-represented, I doubt their race plays a factor. At a place like Princeton, where the student body is largely white, it should. Likewise, a college like Williams that does not have a high population of Asians should try increase their numbers with the aim of creating an academically strong student body that better reflects the real world. A university is a learning environment that extends beyond what the faculty teaches. Only those who have attended residential colleges will completely understand what this means, although it’s not too hard to imagine at least in part. Sitting around in the dorm room, talking late at night about issues, is integral to the experience. The difference in experience and backgrounds of your friends will help shape your understanding. This openness about who you are then goes back into the classroom, where it further enriches the learning experience through different perspectives during discussions. Such diversity makes life more interesting for both faculty and students. It’s an enhancement, not a compromise.

If you already live in a diverse environment, you might take it for granted, but not every teenager in America has had conversations with those of different races, religions, and ethnic backgrounds.

fabrizio · February 16, 2007, 2:53pm

Momwaitingfornew,

I’ve become very cynical toward “diversity,” but even so, I am not totally against it by itself. I am, however, very much against forcing it artificially by granting preferential treatment on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin.

To me, real diversity comes naturally and automatically by admitting a talented and interested class. It does not need to be forced because it always exists. I believe that each individual is inherently unique; no two individuals think alike on every issue. There will always be diversity of thought, upbringing, and personality. Always.

I wager that very, very, very, …, very few individuals, save the most radical of the redemptive liberals and grievance elitists, would argue for admission based solely on race. Matter of fact, I’ve never said that individuals are being admitted just on race. I have said, though, that it is a factor and should not be used.

Unfortunately, I conclude from your second-to-last paragraph that you are unwilling to agree with me that we should not grant preferential treatment to anyone based on his race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin.

As an Asian, I can tell you that I would be insulted if I were admitted because an admissions officer thought that I had a different perspective on life JUST because I am Asian. Some parents here have explicitly stated that Black students have different viewpoints just because they’re Black. I couldn’t disagree more. These are actually discriminatory sentiments that assume minorities are hive-minds. As Dr. McWhorter has pointed out, if there truly is the distinct “Black perspective,” then a professor can simply record this perspective for future reference.

Not every teenager in our nation has met markedly different people, that is true. What better way to rectify that than to accidentally strike up a conversation with a fellow student on a naturally diverse campus?

k_amp_s · February 16, 2007, 2:55pm

momwaiting -

If a “diverse environment” is what these universities are after - then why are Jews so highly represented?

In comparison to Asians, blacks, non-white Hispanics and non-Jewish whites - Jews are somewhat considerably less “diverse”.

Plus, what is a diverse environment? One that is 70/30 white/minority? 60/40? 50/50? 40/60? (Btw, I think pretty much most people of minority background have had “conversations” with whites by the time they get to college.)

Let’s say instead of Asians and Jews - blacks and non-white Hispanic applicants have the highest test scores and well-rounded ECs.

And let’s say that they get admitted at a rate multiple to their pop. base, as Jewish applicants currently do.

(Since that would mean the entire student body would be black/Hispanic) - let’s cap black/Hispanic enrollment at 50% and toss in Asians as another 10% and the rest of minority groups at another 5%.

Do you really think these schools still wouldn’t be concerned with how the make-up of their student body would be perceived among a significant no. of their prospective white applicants, alumni and donor base?

While some revel in diversity, others aren’t particularly comfortable with being in a “minority status” (hence the phenomena of “white flight”).

Momwaitingfornew · February 16, 2007, 3:24pm

“If a “diverse environment” is what these universities are after - then why are Jews so highly represented?”

I guess because they have in general higher test scores and GPAs as a group - just as Asians do. (Asians, too, are highly represented.) Test scores and GPAs tell only part of the picture, although they do help an applicant greatly.

Universities are very much concerned about their alumni - and rightfully so, since their endowments come from alumni - but they also stand up to them. I went to a college that was newly co-ed, and, trust me, the alumni were furious with the decision to admit women. Now, of course, almost everyone agrees that it was one of the best decisions the college had made. Time has a way of shaping opinions.

“While some revel in diversity, others aren’t particularly comfortable with being in a “minority status” (hence the phenomena of “white flight”).”

It’s not just whites who aren’t particularly comfortable with being a minority. I know of a couple CCers last year who were black and who were accepted into what others thought were fairly prestitgious universities, but they chose not to attend, for fear of being stripped of the culture familiar to them. These applicants had strong stats - and yet went elsewhere because they perceived the universities as not being diverse, and therefore not supportive enough, of their race and culture. A diverse student body ends up attracting diverse applicants, so eventually diversity happens on its own. However, it’s tough getting to that point.

Momwaitingfornew · February 16, 2007, 3:30pm

“As an Asian, I can tell you that I would be insulted if I were admitted because an admissions officer thought that I had a different perspective on life JUST because I am Asian. Some parents here have explicitly stated that Black students have different viewpoints just because they’re Black.”

Well, they do have different viewpoints just because they’re black, just as you have a different viewpoint just because you’re Asian. I have a one different from you just because I’m white. Men have different perspectives than women, Midwesterners from Southerners, etc. Our environments and heritages shape who we are as much as our more obvious experiences do. However, a different viewpoint alone is not reason for admission. It’s only part of the whole package.

Your assumption that these applicants are accepted “just because” of their race is wrong. Wrong. One more time. WRONG.

Bay · February 16, 2007, 3:37pm

And I will chime in with this again: Admissions officers do not PREFER one race over another. They prefer some of ALL of them.

(That is why the term “racial preferences” is so inaccurate)

k_amp_s · February 16, 2007, 3:56pm

momwaiting - "I guess because they have in general higher test scores and GPAs as a group - just as Asians do. (Asians, too, are highly represented.) Test scores and GPAs tell only part of the picture, although they do help an applicant greatly."

Right - but Jews make up less than 2% of the US pop. and make up about 24-25% of the Ivy League student body, while Asians are DOUBLE that (at more than 4% of the US pop.) and make up about 16-17% of the Ivy League student body.

Some have argued that the pretty significant gap in admit rates/enrollment bwtn Jews and Asians had to do with the fact that Jewish applicants are more “well-rounded” and hence, meet the “holistic” criteria that these schools have.

In that case - somebody better contact Princeton since it doesn’t seem to have received the memo that Jewish applicants, overall, are “well-rounded.”

Princeton admissions officers have justified their lower admit rates for Jewish applicants by stating their “holistic” admissions standards (sound familiar, huh?).

"It’s not just whites who aren’t particularly comfortable with being a minority. I know of a couple CCers last year who were black and who were accepted into what others thought were fairly prestitgious universities, but they chose not to attend, for fear of being stripped of the culture familiar to them. These applicants had strong stats - and yet went elsewhere because they perceived the universities as not being diverse, and therefore not supportive enough, of their race and culture. A diverse student body ends up attracting diverse applicants, so eventually diversity happens on its own. However, it’s tough getting to that point."

That’s not the same thing to as what I was referring to. Of course, certain people from minority groups do not feel comfortable if they don’t think there is enough nos. to establish a community or support.

Otoh, whites have had a history of feeling uneasy when significant nos. of minorities have moved into a town, neighborhood - where “white flight” results (this includes fairly affluent towns).

In these cases - we’re not talking about whites feeling uncomfortable being 5, 10 or 25% of the pop. - we’re talking discomfort at levels where they still maintain a 50, 60 or 70% demographics.

fabrizio · February 16, 2007, 3:58pm

Momwaitingfornew,

No, I do not have a different viewpoint simply because I am Asian. I have a different viewpoint because I have lived in two geographic regions and two countries in my life so far. I have a different viewpoint because I learned two languages naturalistically. There are many reasons why I have a different viewpoint. My being Asian is not one of them.

I did not assume that applicants are accepted solely based on race. I emphasized that in Post 964. So, yes, you are wrong to believe that I assumed that - because I did not.

As usual, you claim that racial preferences are an inaccurate term that is simply not what affirmative action is. Yet, you refuse to support a ban on preferential treatment. Thus, I can only conclude that your version of affirmative action depends on racial preferences.

Until you support the idea that we should not grant preferential treatment to an individual on the basis of his race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin, you will not convince me that affirmative action as currently practiced uses racial preferences.

Bay, like you, dislikes the term “racial preferences.” Also like you, he refuses to express support for a ban on preferential treatment.

So, until you can definitively state that it is wrong to either discriminate against or grant preferential treatment to a person because he is of a certain race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin, I have no choice but to assume that you are for racial preferences.

StickerShock · February 16, 2007, 4:09pm

The biggest uproar was actually over the design — a hole in the ground. Many vets considered it disrespectful of their sacrifice. As it turned out, it is probably one of the most moving memorials & I believe it is one of the most frequently visited.

Typecast? Um…they ARE great running quarterbacks. That is a huge advantage, makes him a double threat. Blacks of West African descent are simply faster. Most of the slower white guys would kill for that speed. Add speed, smarts, reflexes, vision, arm strength, and you get a great QB candidate. Wouldn’t it be silly to pretend a black QB couldn’t be a running threat because this might fit a sterotype? Even a stereotype that was earning him a gazillion dollars?

k_amp_s · February 16, 2007, 4:46pm

There a big difference btwn pretending that black QBs don’t have the speed/ability to run the ball (some don’t) and to think that they are “run first” QBs who don’t have the skills and wherewhethal to find the open reciever down the field (a QB who is adept at passing the ball down the field is more valuable than a QB who simply/primarily runs with the ball).

That’s why Troy Smith disliked the constant comparison to Vince Young - since he really wasn’t the same style of QB (T Smith was more of a pocket passer who could scramble if pressured).

Erin_s_Mom · February 16, 2007, 5:27pm

I know this is waaay OT, but you guys started it!

One of the best up-and-coming “running” quarterbacks in the NCAA is the kid from U of Florida…can’t think of his name, but he will be Chris Leak’s replacement next year…a great big white kid. Chris Leak (black) was primarily the “throwing” quarterback and the other (white) QB was who they put in when they were goalline.

StickerShock · February 16, 2007, 8:20pm

Yeah, but why does everyone walk on eggshells, afraid that if they praise a black QB’s running ability, it will be perceived as a knock on his intelligence or playcalling smarts?

Back to the topic: Too bad Jian Li wasn’t a QB!

unregistered · February 16, 2007, 8:46pm

Tim Tebow? :)

Erin_s_Mom · February 16, 2007, 8:57pm

Tim Tebow, yep, that’s him! They’re all excited about him in Florida. Let’s see if he lives up to the hype.

StickerShock, I don’t think many QBs actually call the plays themselves (maybe Peyton Manning).

Nothing wrong with either black running QBs (Michael Vick?) or white ones (Steve Young?) But, come to think of it, Asians are pretty underrepresented in the QB position and football as well.

Sorry, mixing topics here.

fabrizio · February 16, 2007, 9:13pm

“Everyone” walks one eggshells because “everyone” is afraid of being branded as a racist.

Assuming that Li Jian actually were a quarterback, why would his simply being one increase his chances of admission? If you tell me it’s because he’s Asian, whoo - we’ve gone several steps backward since the 1960s for sure.

I just don’t get why redemptive liberals and grievance elitists won’t stand against preferential treatment.

Edit

“But, come to think of it, Asians are pretty underrepresented in the QB position and football as well.”

<ol>
<li>Is this a problem?</li>
<li>If it is, how do you propose we fix it?</li>
</ol>

jsmith14921999 · February 17, 2007, 11:11am

[quote]
“But, come to think of it, Asians are pretty underrepresented in the QB position and football as well.”

<ol>
<li>Is this a problem?</li>
<li>If it is, how do you propose we fix it?

[quote]
</li>
</ol>

We should get rid of Culpepper and replace him with Timmy Chang.

StickerShock · February 17, 2007, 11:23am

Good QBs have to make quick assessments. If they see the defense lining up a certain way, indicating that they’ve guessed the offensive play, the QB absolutely has to call a verbal play change. Happens all the time, even in college ball. That’s how USC beat ND two years ago, with a very astute Matt Leinart read of the ND defense.

StickerShock · February 17, 2007, 11:28am

No. I can’t think of any careeer that is a better example of a pure meritocracy than the NFL. THe SuperBowl MVP from 2006 was an Asian, by the way.

Leadership. Tenacity. Time-management ability.

Coincidentally, I met a recent QB from Li’s H.S a few months ago. He was a med student shadowing my pediatrician. An Asian kid who weighed about 150 lbs. Football only came up because the doc always refers to my son as a linebacker build. The QB/med student joked about being a scrambling QB.

Princeton answers to Jian Li claims

CONNECT WITH US