Princeton answers to Jian Li claims

fabrizio · February 18, 2007, 8:47am

Bay,

Is it possible that by “considering race as a factor in admissions” to achieve racial diversity, you exclude students based on their race? Is that not discrimination? Is that Constitutional?

To my knowledge, Proposition 209 was not intended to further the goal of racial diversity. It was intended to further the goal of equality.

Five words bother many supporters of affirmative action. If I remove them,

The state shall not discriminate against any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting.

then no one here has a problem. But, if those five words are present,

The state shall not discriminate against, or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting.

then at least fifty-one percent of the parents here have problems.

It should come as no surprise that Proposition 209 is not working to achieve your vision of what a “racially diverse” college campus looks like. It was not intended for this purpose. It is as if you are asking a student in linear algebra to prove Bayes Rule. This student is not studying probability, how can you fault him for being unable to answer a probability question?

Bay, I’d ask you exactly what “racial diversity” means to you, but I’m unlikely to get a straight answer, so I’ll pass.

If you’d just admit that your conception of “racial diversity” means “more Blacks, more Hispanics, fewer Asians,” then I’ll respect you for your honesty.

k_amp_s · February 20, 2007, 7:10pm

B/c there has been a historical bias against blacks playing the QB position (due to the thinking that they couldn’t handle the “mental aspects” of the position).

Whether Jian Li played QB in HS or not is not the issue (even if he had been a QB, if he wasn’t good enought to be recruited, having played FB would not have any real impact on his admissions chances - he would have had a better chance if he had been a nationally ranked squash player).

And whether Jian Li was accepted to Princeton is not the issue, but rather, the overall significantly LOWER admit rates for Asian applicants (esp. in comparison to that of Jews - another group of highly qualified candidates).

Not as much as you think.

Taking into account only the US born/raised Asian pop. - there have been a decent no. of Asian QBs/FB players.

Timmy Chang (Hawaii/Eagles), Michael Chou (Cal Poly), Roman Gabriel (Rams/Eagles), Kevin Pham and a no. of other have played the QB position (I know a couple of guys who were the starting QB in HS, including one in Wisconsin.)

There have been at least 80 Asians who have played pro or collegiate FB (and there are currently 4 Asians on Harvard’s roster).

Erin_s_Mom · February 20, 2007, 8:12pm

Hmmm…since I was the one to bring up the oh-so OT topic of Asian underrepresentation with regards to football and black quarterbacks in the NCAA DI/NFL, I’ll respond to k&s with all due respect.

People complain about few blacks being drafted at the QB position, yet there seems to be no shouting about the small amount (if any?) of black kickers. Is this a key position in football? Let’s ask Adam Vinitieri, whom, as I recall, sent more than one NFL team to the playoffs/Super Bowl.

My intent was to try and point out that it’s a little bit unusual to expect to draft x number of this race at this position and x number of this race at another position in football. Yet no one seems to complain that there are
lots of white Tight Ends and black Corner Backs and Samoan defensive players. Hey, as long as they’re good at what they do, who cares what race they are??? Why compliment someone if they excel at a position which has been "historically underrepresented’?

My point is: do we want the best players at these positions, especially in the NFL or high-profile NCAA/Div I ?

Is it insulting to praise Tony Dungy for leading his team to a Super Bowl and being the first black coach to do so? Who cares if he’s black or not? He’s a damn fine coach, and to keep harping on about his skin color is, to me at least, insulting.

fabrizio · February 21, 2007, 9:44am

These are very much my sentiments.

I have never understood why it was important to congratulate Mr. Dungy for being the first Black coach to earn a Super Bowl Title. He is an American coach, and based on his team’s performance, a stellar one at that. We should praise his leadership and especially his character. (He has only used one profanity in his life.)

In fact, why African American and Asian American, really?

Is Justice Alito an Italian-American associate justice?

Is Andre Agassi an Iranian-American athlete?

No. Justice Alito is an American associate justice. Andre Agassi is an American athlete.

I was born here. Likewise, I am American.

curmudgeon · February 21, 2007, 9:54am

I believe Mr. Dungy does. ;)

JHS · February 21, 2007, 9:58am

Fabrizio, you are probably too young to remember this. The only reason Sam Alito is not “an Italian-American associate justice” is because Nino Scalia was just that. When he was nominated – with Dennis DeConcini as chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee – people could hardly get a word in edgewise about his career in academia, government, and on the bench, for all the crowing about his being the first Italian-American Justice. He skated through his confirmation in no time flat, despite having a track record of relatively radical conservative views a mile long, and it was largely because of the Italian-American angle.

That’s not to disparage him, by the way. It’s just what happened. William Brennan, one of the Court’s great liberals, got to the Supreme Court in much the same way: President Eisenhower decided for political reasons going into the 1956 election cycle to appoint a young, Northeastern, ethnic, Catholic, registered Democrat, and Brennan wound up being the guy who fit the bill.

As for Tony Dungy, I think part of the congratulations is people congratulating ourselves on living in a society that seems to be making progress in eliminating the effects of past prejudice and oppression, and part of it is encouraged by him because it gives him an opportunity to remind people that he is NOT the first great Black coach, and that there WERE talented people who were held back by prejudice and oppression in the not-so-distant past.

epiphany · February 21, 2007, 1:02pm

Good post, JHS. I think you make some important points, and they lead me to reinforce the important aspect of example, role-modeling, as, i.m.o., a unique benefit of AA in general. This is slightly off-topic to the thread, but does relate to AA & its effects.

Now, I do not wish to step into the political arena as such right here, & argue for or against any candidate, which is WAY O/T. I merely want to point out that Barack Obama, this Ivy grad, has generated enormous energy, merely by his candidacy. It has been generated in the Black community in a way I have not seen in my lifetime except when MLK was actually alive. It is charging up an articulate, educated, cross-aged segment of the U.S. black population to become involved in issues & politics that they admit they had lost interest in for quite a long time. Similarly for simply young people in general, of all races. It matters not whether anyone on this thread approves or does not approve of Obama’s positions, etc., or what party anyone is aligned with. What matters is the participation. It matters big time to democracy in any country. Being able to identify with & relate to those running for office is an aspect of that.

I don’t know what Obama’s test scores were, LOL, nor do I care. Maybe he was a 2400; maybe he was an 1800. But there may be other future Obamas waiting in the wings who could benefit from an Elite education in the way that clearly he has.

StickerShock · February 21, 2007, 1:24pm

epiphany, Obama may be a great role model. But not to some blacks. There is quite a bit of resentment in some pockets because he is not a descendant of American slaves. (There was a funny bit on the Daily Show about the issue, as a matter of fact.) Herein lies the problem of identity politics: We can always seek to find common ground, or seek to focus on our differences & use them as a wedge to drive us further apart. Is a fourth-generation welfare recipient living in the ghetto going to relate to Obama simply because they share a common skin color? Maybe. Maybe not.

epiphany · February 21, 2007, 2:11pm

SS,
I knew someone would bring that up. (Sigh.) Yes, I am aware of some of the nay-sayers out there as to Obama’s “credentials” as One Who Suffered. It is frankly overstated. This was a big topic on a radio talk-show recently, where the host proposed just that question of his audience, as to authenticity. 100% of the respondents (all black callers who called in) said that this “issue” has been overstated by the media, partly because those whom the media covers (such as the Jesse Jacksons, the Al Sharptons & crowd) are experiencing some ambivalence over watching a newer generation (in the view of these callers) take on leadership. It is not the first time that these callers have encountered similar controversies, either. This is a function of in-fighting among the black community & will not overall, I predict (again, according to the predictions of these callers as well) dampen the enthusiasm significantly. In other (business & political & educational) environments it has been Standard Operating Procedure for blacks to question other blacks as to their legitimacy vis-a-vis previous civil rights struggles, previous religious affiliation, previous slave ancestry. It was also proposed by a number of callers that it is possibly difficult for some of the older black generation previously considered role models to watch the mantle being taken over by the younger generation whom Obama represents.

Obama is of joint African + American ancestry. He is, simply put, African-American.

Anyway, as I say, I only brought it up to illustrate the political & societal benefits – healthy benefits – of maximum inclusion of all races in the higher institutions of the land. I did not bring it up to get into technical debates about whether Obama will be universally acclaimed & supported by every African American.

epiphany · February 21, 2007, 2:19pm

“Is a fourth-generation welfare recipient living in the ghetto going to relate to Obama simply because they share a common skin color? Maybe. Maybe not.”

^^…Some of the above did indeed call in and similarly dismissed the so-called controversy as a minor, not a major factor. They were as enthusiastic as the more educated & middle class blacks who called in.

Did not bring this up to create any add’l controversies, or to further hijack. I brought it up because those weighing in on the Jian Li question on CC usually also weigh in on the overall AA factor in Elite admissions, claiming that race shouldn’t matter, etc. It matters. It matters big time. I want my democracy functioning.

frankie38 · February 21, 2007, 2:22pm

Do we need a litmus test? I can see it now. Please swab the inside of your mouth and include that as part of your college application process.

I better invest in some of these medical testing labs now.

fabrizio · February 21, 2007, 4:46pm

Our democracy can function without (selectively) grouping people based on their race.

Going back to JHS’s response, the confirmation of Justice Scalia was indeed before my time. I am completely unfamiliar with how he was labeled as the first Italian-American associate justice. His Wikipedia page, however, refers to him as an American jurist.

I’ve never heard anyone refer to Pete Sampras as a Greek-American athlete, despite the fact that both of his parents are Greek immigrants. He was always an American athlete.

General Colin Powell is referred to as African-American, yet both of his parents are Jamaican immigrants. Jamaica ==|== Africa. Strictly speaking, if one just has to label General Powell, one should label him as Jamaican-American.

Ilias Iliadis, an Olympic gold medalist in Judo, represented Greece at the 2004 Olympics. Iliadis, however, is actually Georgian-born. Since he was adopted by his coach before he turned eighteen, he is fully accorded the rights of a citizenship as a result of Greek law. Only the most rabid nationalists refuse to recognize him as Greek. He is not a Georgian-Greek. He is Greek.

We can have a fully functioning democracy without needing to group anyone based on his race.

StickerShock · February 21, 2007, 5:20pm

The Obamania reminds me a bit of the JFK love affair. Following years of discrimination, Irish Catholics were over the moon that finally one of their own was a serious contender for the presidency. Yet there was nothing remotely Irish Catholic about him! His dad was a womanizing, bootlegging, market-manipulating, Nazi sympathizer. He was more privliged than the Boston Brahmins who looked down at him. Other than a similar surname & shared baptism, not many of the nation’s ICs had anything in common with him. Many had to hold their noses and vote for him. As many ICs had never cast a vote other than a Democratic one, he benefitted from those straight line votes, as well as the proud Irishmen. I’m just not so sure that in these fractured political times, Obama can hold together a coalition of black votes that stretch across a vast spectrum. And I think that’s a GOOD thing, because he should seek to attract votes because of his experience and policy positions, not his race.

epiphany · February 21, 2007, 6:39pm

“I’m just not so sure that in these fractured political times, Obama can hold together a coalition of black votes that stretch across a vast spectrum.”

Blacks so far appear to be more optimistic than you, SS. (Nor do I think your parallel to JFK exactly holds.) And according (further) to the call-in show I referred to, they are not identifying with him merely on account of his race, but they are thrilled that what they see as a truly competent black candidate has surfaced & has agreed to shoulder leadership. In fact, to a person, all of them had negative things to say about the previous “leadership” of other blacks whom they ambivalently referred to as leaders, & whose credentials they were less impressed with than Obama’s.

fabrizio,
your post makes no sense. Blacks are not “grouped” in college admissions, nor are whites, hispanics, or Asians. Candidates are individuals, standing & falling each on his own merits, neither borrowing from, nor subtracting from his or her “group.”

Erin_s_Mom · February 21, 2007, 6:53pm

“he should seek to attract votes because of his experience and policy positions, not his race.”

Yes, THANK YOU, StickerShock for pointing out why any of us should want to vote for any particular candidate. Yet it will persist that BO (unfortunate initials) will always be seen as a “black” or “African-American” candidate, or whatever separatist term the media can come up with to make him appear as a niche candidate.

FWIW, I used to list our ethnicity on any of those ridiculous forms as “Anglo-Celtic-Franco-American” (with all due respect to Chef Boyardee) since, hey, it fits as well as any of the other monikers people choose. But then our HS started interpreting my son’s enthnicity as “Pilipino” (?!?!??!) and he got upset at me, since he’s “just white, mom.”

epiphany · February 21, 2007, 7:24pm

"Yet it will persist that BO (unfortunate initials) will always be seen as a “black” or “African-American” candidate, or whatever separatist term the media can come up with to make him appear as a niche candidate. "

^^That is neither the way most of the media really see him (from what I read & listen to), nor, more importantly, the way blacks see him – the blacks who have weighed in on this publicly. They’re wild about him because he’s a qualified person who just happens to be black, providing legitimacy to the concept that quality can emerge from any ethnic group. They are far more excited about him being a great candidate, actually. They have yet to see that in many of the other black leaders who have previously made full or partial attempts at nat’l political recognition.

fabrizio · February 21, 2007, 7:35pm

epiphany,

The purpose of my post was to respond to your “I want my democracy functioning” statement. I do not see how grouping people based on their race causes a democracy to function better. Would you please elaborate on that?

My examples demonstrated how selective, and thus unnecessary, the -American label is. Justice Alito is no longer the niche Italian-American jurist; he is simply an American one. (Since you care so much for the use of race as a factor, tell me why we shouldn’t continue to use the Italian-American label for him?) Pete Sampras was always an American athlete, but Michael Chang was Asian-American. Why didn’t we call Sampras Greek-American? Why -American for some and not for others?

Really, how does considering race make democracy function better? If anything, it creates more paperwork, leading to more bureaucrats, and a worse-off democracy.

Then would you please care to explain the comment “not another boring Asian?”

k_amp_s · February 22, 2007, 5:36pm

momwaiting - I want to reiterate that giving a URM an “edge” is not the same as “preference.” They get that edge not from adcoms subtracting from their SAT scores, but by being pulled from the stack to be given more thorough consideration. Yes, you might say that this isn’t fair, that every applicant deserves more thorough consideration, but most don’t need it. Scores, grades, essays, and ECs give a solid portrait of most applicants.

It’s not just “more thorough consideration” - URMs are admitted at a significantly higher rate - despite having lower grades/scores.

In the case of URMs, however, SAT cultural bias must be considered, as well as other factors, such as beating the odds, persistence despite societal pressures, and school curriculum/difficulty, among others.

So Asian immigrants who have the dual problem of learning a new language, as well as a new culture, don’t face a “cultural bias” (even more so than African-Americans)?

As for all the other factors - Asian applicants (primarily from SE Asia) who come to the US in poverty, fleeing war or persecution, don’t face hardships equal or greater to that of URMs? Funny how these universities overwhelmingly admit the upper-middle class Asian applicants over that of Asian applicants from less advantageous backgrounds (a corollary to this would be the significant % of black applicants these universities admit from the pool of educated, upper-middle class immigrants from the Caribbean or Africa).

As AdOfficer has said many times, a student taking advantage of what is available to him is a crucial part of admissions. A URM (or first generation or poverty-level student) may not appear on paper to be as competitive as the “standard” applicant until a closer look reveals his extraordinary achievements.

The same AdOfficer, mind you, who claims that Jews face bias in admissions while outright denying that Asian applicants face any such bias.

JHS - **A URM – especially a URM who does not come from a privileged family – who achieves at a high level in ways most similar kids don’t is extraordinary. Much more extraordinary than a kid with 2300 SATs who comes from a background where everyone is educated and school performance is rewarded. That URM kid has beaten incredible odds, and represents not just a “talented 10th” but a “talented 10,000th”. And he or she will have opportunities to lead and to contribute to society in the future that go way beyond those of the average high-test-scorer.

A couple years ago, there was an article in the papers here about an African-American kid who was the best student in decades at his pretty horrible neighborhood high school. Straight As, president of everything, wore the school mascot costume at sports games, active in church and community groups. He had been accepted at an Ivy League school ED (the only kid in the city to go to an Ivy from a public school that was not one of the three public schools that regularly send kids there), although they were requiring him to do some remedial coursework and preparation over the summer.**

What about all those Asian applicants who don’t come from a privileged family, go to a crappy urban school, managed work in order to help his/her parents make ends meet while also engaging in school activities? These Asian applicants, for the most part, are going to lose out to those with higher test scores/grades.

And with regard to black applicants - universities accept more black applicants from upper-middle class backgrounds (many which come from immigrant families) than they do from underpriviledged backgrounds (which has created tension btwn the African-American community and the black immigrant community).

These black applicants with higher scores (albeit, on average, lower than their white/Asian counterparts) are highly sought after by universities and grad schools (many which “wine and dine” them just like FB/BB recruits).

marite · February 22, 2007, 5:47pm

I’m pretty sure that their background would be taken into consideration and would be an important tip.

How does that support your contention that Asian-Americans are being discriminated against?

k_amp_s · February 22, 2007, 6:04pm

Erin’s Mom - **Hmmm…since I was the one to bring up the oh-so OT topic of Asian underrepresentation with regards to football and black quarterbacks in the NCAA DI/NFL, I’ll respond to k&s with all due respect.

People complain about few blacks being drafted at the QB position, yet there seems to be no shouting about the small amount (if any?) of black kickers. Is this a key position in football? Let’s ask Adam Vinitieri, whom, as I recall, sent more than one NFL team to the playoffs/Super Bowl.**

Let’s get real here. There aren’t many black kickers b/c black athletes can’t physically play that position, they just **choose not to<a href=“a%20good%20no.%20do%20kick%20in%20HS%20where%20players%20play%20multiple%20postions,%20however,%20beyond%20HS%20where%20they%20have%20to%20specialize%20on%20a%20position,%20better%20athletes%20gravitate%20to%20the%20more%20exciting%20and%20higher%20paying%20positions”>/b</a>.

With regard to blacks and the QB position, otoh, black FB players weren’t physically unable to play that position, but rather, coaches/society thought that black FB players didn’t have the “what it takes” to play such a cerebral position - quite a big difference.

**My intent was to try and point out that it’s a little bit unusual to expect to draft x number of this race at this position and x number of this race at another position in football. Yet no one seems to complain that there are
lots of white Tight Ends and black Corner Backs and Samoan defensive players. Hey, as long as they’re good at what they do, who cares what race they are??? Why compliment someone if they excel at a position which has been "historically underrepresented’?

My point is: do we want the best players at these positions, especially in the NFL or high-profile NCAA/Div I ? **

One has to do with physical abilities (which are evident on the field of play) - the issue about blacks playing the QB position has do with the stereotype that black players weren’t intelligent enough to play the position.

Is it insulting to praise Tony Dungy for leading his team to a Super Bowl and being the first black coach to do so? Who cares if he’s black or not? He’s a damn fine coach, and to keep harping on about his skin color is, to me at least, insulting.

No - what’s insulting is that black coaches historically have had less opportunity in the coaching ranks than white coaches (that’s why the NFL instituted the “Rooney rule”) and the fact that only 3% of the Div 1-A football coaches are black.

Again - these type of biases exist throughout society - what makes college admissions adminstrators so special that they are immune to these biases?

Princeton answers to Jian Li claims

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