Problems with painting contractor

Parent Cafe
1

<p>I’d like to tap the collective wisdom of CC on this.</p>

<p>Last March/April, I contacted a painter about doing the outside of our house. This is a big job, because it’s not a small house and it’s white clapboards, with shutters, large window boxes, etc. This person has done some inside work for me lately, and he has worked for 20 years for one of my neighbors. He does beautiful work, and I like him very much (although the latter is not in force at the moment).</p>

<p>He gave me an estimate that I considered reasonable, not cheap but not unreasonable considering how meticulous he is . He said that he would bring in a crew of 3-4 people and it would take 12 days. He said that it would be best to wait until mid-May to start, when the weather was warmer. I hired him and we agreed that he would start mid-May. No written contract, just a handshake. </p>

<p>Fast forward to mid-June. He still hasn’t started. Finally he comes toward the end of June, 5 weeks ago next Monday. The first day he is working by himself but after that he has 2 other guys with him. They work for 2 weeks, then he tells me that he is leaving over the weekend for 4 weeks in Eastern Europe. He says that his guys will finish up, that they’ve been with him a long time, they do good work. I am not happy about this, but at that point there wasn’t a lot that I could do. I assumed that they were almost finished. </p>

<p>For the next 3 WEEKS there are 2-3 guys working every day (today is their last day). I am more and more unhappy, because I can’t communicate well with them. Some of it is language problems, some is just their ignoring my instructions. They’ve created some lead dust (the owner told me they would do minimal sanding, but they ended up doing a fair amount) and I don’t want it in the house. I tell them multiple times not to come in to open windows, that I will do it when necessary, so that I can clean the windowsills with wet paper towels. They keep coming in anyway (I’d been leaving the back door open so that they could use the bathroom near the back door), opening windows, brushing the lead dust off with a dry paintbrush. I still have lead testers from when the kids are small and I found lead dust inside a couple of windows. They also leave muddy footprints. I am not able to get through to them - either they don’t understand me or they ignore me.</p>

<p>The front door has to be painted and left open all day to dry. I tell them to let me know when they are about to start. They don’t - I happen to catch one of them coming in to do the front door, carrying a tarp that has been used outside, full of lead dust, to put down in my front hallway. At this point I tell them that the house will be completely locked up and they will not be able to get in without my knowledge. </p>

<p>They are just finishing up today. They did a beautiful job. </p>

<p>I am concerned about getting a huge bill when the owner comes back. I paid him several installments before he left, the total is $1k under the high end of the estimate. I thought at that point they were nearly done. Now they’ve been working 3 more weeks. I don’t know how you get from 12 days to 25 days. The owner comes back mid-week. I suspect that the guys stretched out this job because they don’t have any more work until then. </p>

<p>It has been miserable having people working on the house for 5 weeks, especially given that I have had to watch what they were tracking/bringing into the house. On top of that, I’d expected that the job would be done around the beginning of june. Instead it is finished today, the end of July. That means that we have not been able to use the patio or plant the bed there, and I haven’t been able to plant the windowboxes. </p>

<p>The owner is going to get an earful from me when he gets back. I know that he delayed my job, and left in the middle of it, because I’m nice to him. I know that other people have told him that he wouldn’t get jobs if he didn’t do them right away. </p>

<p>And I will be really furious if, on top of all this, he charges me a huge overrun over the estimate. There is no justification for it, nothing unexpected came up. </p>

<p>Thoughts?</p>

2

<ol>
<li> Don’t give him any more money until he has finished job to your satisfaction. Don’t pay him more than what you originally agreed to.</li>
</ol>

<p>It’s never too wise to pay a contractor a bunch of money up front. Sounds like he took your money and went on a European vacation with it before completing job. You’ll figure out what to do with him.</p>

<p>[Cool</a> Hand Luke - Failure to Communicate - YouTube](<a href=“Cool Hand Luke - Failure to Communicate - YouTube”>Cool Hand Luke - Failure to Communicate - YouTube)</p>

3

<p>Wow - several basic problems on this one. Here’s an admittedly hindsight type post - </p>

<p>Firstly - never have a contractor do work on your house without a written contract spelling out the details - especially a big expensive job like this that involves a lot of money, time, and multiple workers.</p>

<p>Secondly - you should only use a contractor with a valid contractor’s license who also has adequate insurance in the event one of the workers gets hurt.</p>

<p>Thirdly - I don’t know what the laws are in your area but normally one needs to be very careful about dealing with lead paint and mitigate it according to locals laws (and common sense). You’re talking about some of the dust getting into the house but what about the dust flying around in the air outside and getting onto the neighbor’s property, all over your property, maybe even on a vegetable patch? What they did with the lead paint (sanding, scraping by non-trained/certified people, etc.) might even be illegal in your area.</p>

<p>Fourthly - There can always be a issue when hiring people you can’t communicate with. In this case you didn’t hire them directly but it’s something that should have been covered up front or dealt with the first time you had an issue - i.e. the first time they didn’t do what you wanted them to do and you realized you weren’t getting through to them you could have barred them from doing any more work until the owner returned. </p>

<p>You should have made sure you at least had a contact number for this owner when he’s out of the country so you could discuss issues and problems since his group was actively working on your house and you could’ve paused the work if he wouldn’t provide one. I know it’d stretch everything out but you would have avoided some of the issues.</p>

<p>At this point you’re going to need to wait for the owner to get back and see what he says as far as charges, argue if you don’t agree, and you can pay just what you think he should be paid and then if he doesn’t like that then he can sue you. The good news is that you’re the one holding the money at this point and it sounds as if the contention is only if he charges ‘more’ than the original estimate so even if he sues you (or just argues) you can always fall back on that estimate. If he’s unable to estimate properly that’s his problem - not yours.</p>

4

<p>Although I haven’t always been good about it in the past, I’ve learned how important it is to have a written contract. I think it’s very important to use the words “neatness counts” and “time is of the essence”. I’m glad they did a beautiful job for you. I’m sorry it took them so long to do it … that was ridiculous! You know what the estimate was that the contractor gave you and I would not pay them more than the agreed upon amount. The fact that it took them much longer than estimated is not your problem. If he charges more than the high end of the estimate due to his guys working twice the number of days estimated, that’s on him, too. He was on vacation and left his guys to do the work. If you both don’t agree on the price and he threatens to sue you, I don’t believe he could win since you don’t have a written contract. Good luck and let us know what happens.</p>

5

<p>Albeit late, the contractor showed up and is actually working, albeit not the way you want. Anyway, not much to complain about as far as contractors go. Ask the people who have written checks and never seen the guy again. GL</p>

6

<p>Thanks for all the advice. I was taken completely by surprise when he left the country. He told me on Friday and he left over the weekend. I could have told them to stop working, I guess, but then I would have been left with a half-painted house. From what I can tell, the guys took a ridiculous amount of time to finish the job. Things seemed to go much faster when he was here.</p>

<p>About the lead paint, I am aware of it and talked to him about it. He said that they would do minimal sanding, then they did what I consider more than that. The houses are not spaced closely and there is no one with young kids nearby, so I was not as concerned as I would have been if there had been kids around. And there aren’t any vegetable growing nearby. </p>

<p>I’ll have to see what he says I owe him. I can’t see any justification for increasing the price, but I don’t know how he will be able to pay they guys for 25 days when he based his estimate on 12.</p>

7

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<p>Stand your ground. Finding a way to pay his workers for them dragging their feet and taking twice as long to get the job done is the contractor’s problem, not yours. It was either a case of “when the cat’s away, the mice will play” or the contractor way under-estimating the job. I know he does a lot of work in the neighborhood and I’m sure you would rather avoid conflict, but this is on the contractor, not you.</p>

8

<p>As far as your concern about being charged more, his original estimate would have been determined based on man-hours as opposed to simply the number of days on the job. He planned on using 3-4 guys for 12 days, but actually only used 2-3 guys for 25 days. Of course it would take longer with less workers, but shouldn’t necessarily cost more money (depending on how he accounted for the cost of his own hours).</p>

<p>Sorry you had to be put through so much inconvenience and frustration, but glad that you were happy with the final results. I hope the final pricing works out.</p>

9

<p>Thanks for the responses. Yes, he probably charges more for his hours, so maybe the time isn’t so far off. I do think the job slowed WAY down after he left. When he was here I could see that a lot was done every day, after he left, it was sort of surprising how little seemed to get done every day. Of course, I was not able to watch them all day, I work at home and was busy. But I could see the progress at the end of the day.</p>

<p>One reason I hired him, instead of another person I’ve used for painting, is that he said he’d bring in a crew and be done in 12 days. The other person only has 2 people working at a time, so I knew it would take longer. I am very irritated by having had to deal with people working on the house for such a long time, and by how late in the summer the job has been completed.</p>

<p>They did do a very good job, much better than anyone has done before. I wouldn’t even mind paying a thousand or two over the estimate, because I think the job is worth that, but more than that I will balk at.</p>

<p>Thanks again for all the responses.</p>

10

<p>If you live in New York: </p>

<p>[NYS</a> Regulations for Lead Poisoning Prevention and Control - NYCRR Title X, Part 67 (Volume A-1a)](<a href=“NYS Regulations for Lead Poisoning Prevention and Control - NYCRR Title X, Part 67 (Volume A-1a)”>NYS Regulations for Lead Poisoning Prevention and Control - NYCRR Title X, Part 67 (Volume A-1a))</p>

11

<p>Basically, what was done was done and OP had let it slide, for this project there is little to do other than negotiate the final payments. Perhaps you should negotiate a price and time frame before the job started so no matter what happened to the job, you will be paying a set price.</p>

<p>Construction delays are common place and is expected, some times the contractor cannot find enough workers, some times, there were unexpected complications. As far as painting concerned, there should not be that much complications. </p>

<p>Lead paint is a major hazard and if it is not properly contained, you could be fined in big time. However, EPA is short handed and you might be able to slide by unless your neighbor raise the attention to the Agency.</p>

12

<p>I can’t imagine why you think he’d expect you to pay more than the estimate. Isn’t that what an estimate is all about - the contractor figures his costs and what he’s going to charge. If you get multiple estimates, it’s not the your obligation to pay the lowest bidder what the highest bidder asked. Your house didn’t grow walls - he saw what the job entailed and had to know it would go slower without him around. The other issues are water over the bridge and will affect your references for him. </p>

<p>I would pay the agreed price, eventually forget about the aggravation and if you need to, look up Consumer Affairs in your area if you need to negotiate with the contractor. I think he’s just going to expect to be paid the estimate price.</p>

13

<p>According to New York state law, at least some of what they did was illegal. You can ask him if his workers knew about that, and tell him how frustrated you were with trying to communicate with them. Legally, he could be on the hook for cleanup of lead dust inside and outside of your house because they didn’t follow the state procedures. I doubt very much if he’ll be asking for more money if he hears about any of that.</p>

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<p>Go easy on the pulling the law against the contractor. Because the owner of the property is ultimately responsible for the compliance. As I understand, if you hire unqualified contractors and if they did some thing wrong on lead paint treatment, the agency is going to breath down on the owner, that is you, not on the contractors.</p>

15

<p>Now I am really worried and my stomach is upset! The information posted is scary.</p>

<p>greenwitch, I looked at the link, but it doesn’t seem to apply here. It relates to what is done if lead poisoning is diagnosed. In our case, there was no need or intention to remove all the paint from the house. It’s an old house (1920’s), and there are multiple layers, and the earlier ones have to be leaded because that’s what was used. The paint is in good condition, with only a few very small areas that needed prep. When we went over the job at the time of the estimate, we talked about those areas. The painter is well aware of lead paint issues, and he took a one-day class in managing this. He said that they would do only a little hand-sanding and mostly fill in with putty (these days, people use a lot of wood putty to fill in rather than sanding down, it is sanded smooth and painted and looks great). Because there are no young kids anywhere around, I did not see a problem.</p>

<p>I was very unhappy when the guys started using power sanders. They did not use them very long, and only on very small sections of single clapboards, but there was dust produced. When my sons were small, I was very careful about lead exposure, and I learned a lot about how to test for it, deal with it, avoid creating it, protect items from contamination, clean it up. We had multiple renovations done on the house and my sons never had lead levels higher than 1-2 ug/dL (basically background), and I had them tested every year.</p>

<p>About the cost and estimate, he is not back yet and I don’t know how much he will ask me for. He has done inside work for me and kept to his estimates. He has been doing this a long time and is very good. He charges about the same as other decent painters but does much better work. I am worried because the number of days more than doubled. As SnLMom pointed out, what matters is not days but man-days. I’m not sure how that worked out. The first day, the head painter was the only one working. I don’t think there were ever more than 2 other guys with him. After he left, there were 2 guys for a while, then a third one came on some days. I did not take notes so I don’t really know how many man-days were involved. </p>

<p>lefthanddog, you’re right. I will forget about the aggravation eventually, but it’s looming large at the moment.</p>

16

<p>I wouldn’t pay more than the low end of the estimate. Painting is not a job with a lot of surprises. Construction is - I’ve had many jobs where we removed the drywall and found studs riddled with termite damage, naturally that sort of surprise results in extra costs, but I’ve never heard of anything but a firm estimate for painting.</p>

17

<p>Right, mathmom - the scope of the job was obvious at the time of the estimate. There was a $1k difference between the low and high ends, related to choices of materials (very high-quality expensive paint on doors, shutters, window boxes) and labor (an extra coat in some places). I chose the options so I was expecting the high end. </p>

<p>I feel conflicted because I felt so sorry for the painters working outside all day in the heat, especially on the brutally hot days.</p>

<p>I wish they’d started my job in May, so heat wouldn’t have been a factor!</p>

18

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<p>Okay, you need to approach this a different way. Pretend the house and the money aren’t yours - you’re simply acting as legal administrator for an adult who’s unable to take care of these things himself. So it’s that person’s money, and you’re being paid to manage things in his absence. What would you do?</p>

<p>In other words, approach this like a business transaction . . . and take your personal feelings out of it. Unless this is the only painter in the city, you have an obligation to be responsible in how you spend your money . . . even if it does mean a permanent rift with this painter.</p>

19

<p>Thanks for the good advice, dodgersmom! I’ll keep my feelings about their having painted my house in brutal heat out of it. After all, if they’d started in May as agreed, someone else would be feeling guilty about it.</p>

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<p>You are getting worked up over nothing…you pay the price agreed upon, end of story. Painters know how to bid, there are no big surprises as in construction. I bet your bill will be what he told you it would be.</p>