Programmer / High School dropout with unusual background thinking of MS engineering

Graduate School
1

<p>Here’s my situation:</p>

<p>Dropped out of high school (straight A student) as a teenager when my father came up with the bright idea of introducing me into the workforce directly. I began working in an IT department of some non-tech company doing computer programming. At the time, I really did not like school so I did not really see this as a sacrifice.</p>

<p>Completed a part-time University of Phoenix degree (some random liberal arts major) by 19 time at my father’s insistence. Told me getting the paper is the only thing that matters. Did not know better at the time so I followed his advice. </p>

<p>Later, at 22 returned to community college part-time while still programming (my father did not want to pay for my classes) to take science courses after developing a latent interest in the bio/med field. Took three years of part-time classes. Maintained a 4.0 in all courses including o-chem.</p>

<p>Had plans to enter grad/med school. Got a 35 on the MCAT. After an intense scuffle with my parents over where to attend school (they wanted me to stay local) and whether or not I should leave my job, I gave up on Bio. </p>

<p>I instead pursued an alternative interest by enrolling in an MBA at a local school paid for by my company. (I have been an investor since I was a teenager so econ/finance is my other passion outside of sciences)</p>

<p>I discovered upon graduation (3 1/2 years later) that prestige matters, and that my crappy UofPhx degree and unaccredited (at least not by AACSB) MBA in finance with nearly 4.0 GPA were not going to get me a finance job. I realized I had made a big mistake by attending these crappy programs that had no on-campus recruiting. I actually did not even know about on-campus recruiting until I applied for many jobs and I realized I had no responses, other than recruiters looking for IT workers. At least barring a miracle or an extremely circuitous path of superhuman networking or leveraging my programming background to land a gig doing IT work at a bank, there was no way I was going to get into finance. To clarify, when I say finance, I am specifically referring to working in any kind of banking or trading, not accounting. No, I was not only applying at prestigious investment banks, I really would have taken a job at any financial firm. I had no interest in money. I actually had no idea how much they actually made at the time.</p>

<p>Anyway, after realizing that no pot of gold was waiting for me at the end of the rainbow, I had to rethink my plan. Finally after much introspection and realization of my folly, I decided I needed breathing time and I had to get away from my job. I never even had a chance to go to college or have friends. Obviously, my dad was freaking out about my decision since he came from a poor family and was extremely tight with money. Nonetheless, I knew the time had come for me to assume my own independence and manhood. After trying to secure his approval of my decision (yes, even at nearly 30 years old), I decided to quit despite him and move out. I had plenty of savings.</p>

<p>So, now, to get to the point: </p>

<p>(1) I am still interested in the financial industry. (1) I also like the sciences. I have coursework completed in both. I also have stronger knowledge than my courses reflect since I took course part-time. (3) However, my resume speaks loud and clear that I AM a programmer. </p>

<p>With all the different fields I have been involved in, I am mired in confusion. I came up with the bright idea of pursuing an MS engineering degree (aspiring for a top school) which would allow me to use the school recruiting to land a finance job or alternatively continue in engineering. </p>

<p>My only problem is my sciences course were done at community college level which is obviously not very prestigious. I just did two more semesters at cc after quitting my job, taking basic engineering courses, calc II,III,Diff Eq,Linear Algebra, and some others. Still 4.0 there.</p>

<p>First question:
Now, I can either take classes at a local but highly rated undergrad eng program (already transferred there) or I can take part-time classes at an equally highly rated eng school which offers classes at night. The part-time program is expensive and does not seem comparable to its full-time program. Some classes given seem like undergrad classes even though they have 700 level type names. If you have a pulse and a 3.0 you can get into the part-time program. On the other hand, the undergrad university has classes everyday and requires a long drive, but is cheaper (I have a scholarship as well). Which is better from an admissions perspective?</p>

<p>Second question:
Keeping in mind, I am strongly considering going into finance after MS engineering which is why I need to attend a top school, so I am thinking that comp sci/ee would be the most effective way to get recruiting. On the other hand, I have more college courses which would match BioE or ChemE which I also think are slightly more interesting. </p>

<p>Despite my extra classes in bio/chem, I felt like the ten years+ of programming would factor into admissions far more, and that it would be easier for me to get into an EE/CS program with my java background (keep in mind I am not that good and was not challenged much in my job). Also,I feel like from a grad committee’s perspective, programming–>EECS would appear to be a logical progression whereas a programmer going into ChemE or BioE would be non-sequitur despite having completed pre-med coursework in Bio/Chem. I like programming, but I don’t love it. I thought maybe doing BioE in imaging using programming might be a compromise. </p>

<p>Once again, keeping in mind that I may want to go down the finance road, should I suck it up and do the EECS even though I am slightly more interested in BioE or ChemE? The other point is that even with recruiting it may be easiest to enter finance as a quantitative programmer with my background, and I will not learn much programming in ChemE or even BioE. Plus, If I decide to stay in engineering, I am not sure I feel comfortable starting in the BioE or ChemE field as a Newbie at my age, unless I can get a bioinformatics job. I feel like with the EECS degree, I could remain a programmer but get a job at a much better company. Any suggestions?</p>

<p>I do realize that this post may come off as disorganized and indicate a fanciful desire to have everything at once which is not really the case. I am just expressing what I feel. I am posting this precisely to get a dose of reality. Thanks.</p>

2

<p>That sounds like you have a perplexing dilemma in front of you. I would be tempted to say go with what you love, but there is plenty of room to explore bio related themes in both Electrical and Chemical engineering. Certainly, Bioengineering is fairly flexible in terms of what you can study at the graduate level.</p>

<p>I wonder if anyone else on this forum can opine regarding Lostengineer’s question vis a vis how much his career as a programmer would factor into admissions decisions for graduate engineering or comp sci programs.</p>

<p>One would think that if you could convey to the committee that your programming background is fairly strong in terms of the projects you worked in even if they were essentially simple office productivity apps, then this might strengthen your candidacy. </p>

<p>I am not sure if your age would factor into the decision as far as beginning a new career in chemical engineering.</p>

<p>As far as schooling for pre-requisites, I have been an adjunct at both community college and a four year university. My impression is that they are fairly similar especially if the four year university is a public. Not too sure if it matters which one you go to although you probably would have to attend a four year university to obtain 300/400 level classes.</p>

<p>Hopefully, someone else on here has more detailed suggestions to offer.</p>

3

<p>I wanted to add that it is a bit tragic how these online universities lure in people with their promise of inflated master and phD degrees that ultimately have little value in a marketplace in which prestige and networking are a big part of the value of any degree, not only the working knowledge acquired. I am not particularly convinced that these online degrees truly provide any real value.</p>

<p>But hey, I am sure there are situations where it is useful to pursue these kinds of degrees. I tend to think that in those cases, a person would be best served by attending harvard extension, columbia general studies, or the upenn part-time program, or something along those lines.</p>

<p>Perhaps, the school you take for your prereqs might matter a little more than I originally thought considering that you originally attended University of Phoenix. You did not say where you got your masters though.</p>

<p>I still have no idea how much of a factor your IT work would play in admissions, so I suspect it would be fairly significant.</p>

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<p>Can any one comment on my situation or any aspect of it since I had multiple concerns.</p>

5

<p>If what you’re really after is a job in finance, the field is so competitive that I’m not sure if any engineering degree is going to make you a shoo-in… but you’re probably already well aware of that.</p>

<p>That being said, UPenn has a Master of Computer and Information Technology (MCIT) degree that might be close to what you’re looking for. It’s a little different from other CS programs in that it’s geared for those without a CS undergrad degree. There are people with undergrad degrees in Physics, Biology, Engineering, Economics, etc. Like any other graduate program at SEAS, admission is selective (the average math GRE for the admitted Fall 2010 class was 750) but if your MCAT score is any indication, you’re probably a pretty good test-taker.</p>

<p>Penn is also a great place to gain access to the worlds of finance and medicine. As a SEAS student, you can take classes at Wharton (although not all of them will count towards fulfilling the MCIT requirements). If you’re interested in bio, there’s a ton of research on campus and plenty of opportunities to intern or work part-time. There are also a few CIS classes with a biological bent, like Intro to Bioinformatics and Advanced Computational Biology.</p>

6

<p>If you meant that an engineering degree from a non-elite school will not do the job, then I agree. Did you also mean that in a general sense? Don’t the banks recruit at all the top schools? Keep in mind I do have an MBA from a prestigious school (the MBA program is not prestigious just the general school itself but most people don’t realize this although I guess recruiters might)</p>

<p>So, the MCIT degree is as rigorous as the MS CS or is this like a lightweight consolation prize for those who do not have the appropriate background to get into a proper CS program? </p>

<p>You make a very interesting point which is that I should probably pursue an engineering degree at a school that has a prestigious MBA program so I can piggyback off of the recruiting from the MBA students… is that what you were hinting at?</p>

<p>Are you at UPenn since you are recommending it? </p>

<p>Thanks for the info thus far.</p>

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<p>I guess I sort of buried the lede, but I think you have an idea of what I was trying to get at. If you’re looking to leverage your technical background as a jumping-off point into something non-technical, then it might be better to go to a school that has ties to those non-technical industries. At Penn, there are strong ties to the finance and biomedical industries. As an example, I do know of SEAS masters students that are taking advantage of the heavy finance recruiting at Wharton, although as non-MBA’s they’re targeting analyst positions instead of associate positions. </p>

<p>I brought up the MCIT program since you mentioned that your background was non-CS. In some sense you could consider it less rigorous than the MSE CIS program, which does require a CS background. The core courses for the MCIT program are taught differently from the core courses of the MSE program since the MCIT courses assume no prior CS knowledge. (It was really helpful for me. I graduated from a pretty rigorous engineering school and had taken tons of calculus, yet the first semester discrete math course was the first time I had ever seen concepts like posets, big-O notation and computational complexity.) After the core courses, MCIT and MSE students choose from the same pool of CIS classes to fulfill their elective requirements. As an experienced programmer, you could probably place out of some of the core MCIT courses to gain some extra electives to play with. After satisfying the core requirements, there is also the option to switch to the MSE CIS program, but this would require staying an extra semester or two.</p>

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<p>How old is your MCAT? That’s an impressive score that could be used (perhaps) if you decided to go into the biomedical field – say, into computational biology. </p>

<p>First, you must get an accredited four-year degree. I recommend the full-time program because you’ll have a better chance of working and getting to know your professors. You will need recommendations. You will need some research experience even for the M.S. The reason you couldn’t get into finance probably has less to do with recruiting than it does in your not having a traditional degree.</p>

<p>Second, you don’t have to major in something to get accepted into a graduate program in that field. You just need to take the prerequisite courses. And you don’t necessarily need to major in finance to go into finance. If finance is your goal, then I highly recommend that you tackle the necessary courses at your four-year college and use their career services office not just during recruiting season but, if necessary, beyond. </p>

<p>Third, people with computing skills are desired in a variety of fields. Instead of making you less valuable, your background will make you more so, provided that you spin it that way in your statement of purpose. If you take one or two upper level computer science courses (to prove that you have high level skills) and then then necessary courses to qualify you for your chosen field, then you will strengthen your application.</p>

<p>Fourth, if you don’t want to be an engineer, don’t be an engineer just because it makes sense with your current background. Remember that what you do today will become your background tomorrow. I suggest that you explore the different fields more closely to determine which path will be best for you in ten years. Computer science is different from IT/straight programming, and it may provide the types of challenges you’re looking for. Or it might not. The same is true of all the other sciences and finance. Choose your path — and go for it.</p>

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<p>Vizzini,</p>

<p>What engineering field did you study? I am trying to get a handle of what kind of candidate backgrounds (degrees) usually get the most play from these top comp sci programs. EE, physics, math? What about biochem or chem?? In getting to know your classmates, did you know of any biology majors in the regular MS CIS program who had basic engineering math and maybe a programming course or two, that got conditional admission (with requirements to take missing pre-reqs prior to enrolling) based on stated interests in computational biology? I am for all intents and purposes a biology major. Do you think this background combined with my programming experience, completion of Comp Sci I and II over Spring and Summer, would be enough to get me admitted into a well-ranked CS program? </p>

<p>I am wondering how many pre-reqs they would want completed at the time of application, since there would be a year of so between my application and my actual enrollment, which would seem to be plenty of time to get all the pre-reqs done before I even get in.</p>

<p>I think that idea of doing MCIT might be a good one since you said I can always change to CIS if I put in another semester or two.
Did you run into any trouble with the formal name of your degree, i.e. confuse employers? Your Upenn idea makes sense. Based on that, I will target most of the prestigious schools that have a fairly decent ranked computer science program. </p>

<p>Momwaiting for new… good point about the degree being a deterrent in getting hired by certain brand-selective employers. My undergrad degree is accredited, technically, it just doesn’t speak highly of me as a potential hire. I’ve already taken loads of finance courses in my MBA. My MBA is from a prestigious school which happens to have a no-name business school which was just starting up when I joined. </p>

<p>I think you’re right about the fact that temporary things often become permanent and that I should not study something I am not interested in. After much thought and agony, I eliminated most of the engineering options: i.e. chem engineering does not make sense since I have no work experience in that field and no real passion for designing chemical processes. I wanted to do EE for a very silly and shallow reason that it is computer related does not sound like Comp Sci which laymen confuse with less-prestigious IT work. Yes, I realize that it is a ridiculous statement, and seeing that I have no interest in circuits, it makes no sense at all, so I eliminated that option. I actually like programming, but when I think of myself as a lowly cubicle rat who can be outsourced to Asia in a heartbeat, I shudder. However, when I think of myself as a scientific programmer (not saying that can’t be outsourced either) or bioinformatics engineer or bioengineer, the semantics of it make it seem much more appealing. </p>

<p>In short, I am going to stick with programming but strengthen my background and diversity into biology. When I finish my MS, if I get a great job offer in finance, I’ll take it otherwise I may head off to Genentech or some place like that though I really do not know much about the opportunities in that industry. </p>

<p>I have trouble abstaining from the constant re-assessment of fields by inconsequential metrics that I make up (such as which field is more prestigious, which salary is higher, which field requires a MS vs phD, and various other details) that I forget that to succeed it is entirely up to me regardless of which field I am in. </p>

<p>So, I am going to go with computational biology, or comp sci with bioinformatics concentration. By the way, my MCAT expired, its more than 5 years old now…</p>

<p>Finally, do you think assuming I get top GRE scores that with my bioscience background 4.0 from community college, two A’s in biochemistry I and II from a top four year school, minus no-name worhtless undergrad, and a near 4.0 gpa in an MBA in finance, plus some bioinformatics research which I am about to do, that I would be strong enough to get into a top 20 CS MS program or bioengineering/computational Bio. I am enrolled in a part-time MS comp sci right now at a well-known state school. They give comp sci I and II as pre-reqs. If I take those and maybe one graduate course, will this do the trick?</p>

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<p>For computer science, you need a solid math background (usually at least through Calc. III, although some programs like to see more) and certain courses (operating systems, databases, etc.); you need to check the individual programs to see what they expect of their applicants. You must take a few courses beyond the introductory ones to appear to know the field. To be competitive at a top 20 MS program in CS, you’ll also need strong LORs from professors who know you well, especially given your non-traditional background. Your SOP should show knowledge of your field as well as passion.</p>

<p>To add biology, you’ll probably need cell biology and molecular biology/genetics. If your school has a course in bioinformatics, check out the prereqs and do what it takes to qualify for the course.</p>

<p>I can’t say whether you would qualify for top 20 CS programs since each case is individual. MS programs tend to be less competitive than PhD programs, but, of course, few people get in everywhere they apply. Just make sure that your professors can write strong recommendations and that everything else is in place.</p>

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<p>In undergrad I took a mix of electrical and mechanical engineering courses and graduated with an interdisciplinary engineering degree. I only know a few of the MSE CIS students, but those that I do all have Computer Science / Computer Engineering degrees. The people I know with the bio backgrounds are all in the MCIT program… I think a few of them work in some of the Penn Medicine research groups. </p>

<p>Regarding employers, I haven’t heard about anyone having trouble with the name of the degree. Recruiting for summer internships recently started, and most of my classmates are getting pretty good interviews. I know one person who’s already locked down a summer internship at Microsoft.</p>