Proposed Solution to AA backlash

simba · April 19, 2005, 9:45am

Yes there is a backlash. The proponents of AA see the issue from 50,000 ft above the ground and conclude that it has to be good because it is good for the society.

However, many fail to recognize that there are REAL kids who are personally affected by the selection of AA candidates from their OWN schools. There are real causalities. There may be hundreds of kids who went head on with a kid with low academics and they were denied admissions to all those schools while the AA kids were admitted to all of them and often with full ride (I personally know half a dozen kids who had to settle for state safety schools)

Let us face it, the selective schools are not going to admit more than one from a Podunk high school which has no track record for sending kids to their schools. The waitlisted kids have no chance to get in to those schools first because of AA kids from their own school and then in the wait list round, because the colleges would say we already have a kid from that Podunk high school.

The personally affected kids also see the AA kids and their parents flaunting and demanding special treatments (you can find posts on CC that says hey man play your race card).

Many AA kids also get admitted to multiple schools, but they can only attend one school. So in practical terms, they acted as spoilers at schools they will not attend.

Perhaps a national clearing center for AA recruitment may solve the problem. A consortium of elite schools can select their quota of X black, Y Hispanics, Z developmental kids from a common pool. During the application process, the AA kids can designate their top few choices, but they get admitted to only one.

blossom · April 19, 2005, 9:55am

You’ve got to be kidding. Look at the stats on minority enrollment in the top schools, compare it to the size of the lacrosse, hockey and football teams, and tell me that AA kids are crowding out the kid from Podunk high school. The number just aren’t that big!

How about the fact that some hockey player with SAT scores 200 points lower than the academic superstar not only gets accepted, but then gets all sorts of hand-holding, special tutors, etc. to make sure he doesn’t flunk out!

momsdream · April 19, 2005, 10:02am

Ok, where are the cameras?..this has GOT to be a joke! (and one in poor taste)

And that’s about as much of a response as I can muster before I go vomit.

emeraldkity4 · April 19, 2005, 10:18am

I don’t know what sort of situtation you have at your school to even consider such a proposal but it wouldn’t fly here.
There are hundreds of very good private schools and even more public schools- if students thought outside the box they are sure to find a great school for them.

garland · April 19, 2005, 11:04am

I can’t dispute your own anecdotes, but my kids went to a bona fide Podunk HS (926 average SAT, half URM). I can think of only one URM from my S’s class going to a highly selective school (Penn), and first, I think she is qualified on her own merits, and second, another student from our school (white) was also accepted there, which blows that theory. Other white/Asian kids from his class are at Columbia, Duke, West Point, Cornell, Swarthmore, Richmond, Franklin and Marshall, and that’s about it for selective. No one was “hurt” by a socalled “AA” admission.

I also dispute the fact that because a kid with lower “stats” gets in and a non-minority student does not, that we can know that that non-minority would have otherwise gotten in. Maybe NO student from that school would have been accepted. No one owns a slot, no students and no schools.

mini · April 19, 2005, 11:12am

End 5 generations of AA for wealthy white kids and it all becomes a non-issue. (But I can’t understand why any “prestige” school would want to do that - after all, that’s what gave them their prestige to begin with.)

demingy · April 19, 2005, 11:15am

I may be naive here, but just looking at the numbers from the “top tier” schools, I really think that AA is overestimated. If someone really doesn’t have the ability they aren’t going to get in “using the race card”. I think that AA really only holds that same weight as most “hooks”–they might look a little more closely at an application, but usually if the numbers aren’t there to begin with the application won’t even make it to their desk.

I’ve also noticed that a lot of people like to blame AA when they feel that someone with “lesser stats” got in. I honestly think that most of these people are making assumption about that person’s stats because they usually can’t give concrete information anyway. For example, “I just KNOW that her stats weren’t as strong” or “I’m sure that he only has a ‘B’ average”. Usually there isn’t anything concrete to back these statements up.

sybbie719 · April 19, 2005, 11:34am

Demingy,

I agree with what you have said because it would be more detrimental to the school to admit students who are not going to be successful regardless of race.

I am only going to talk about the situation as it pertains to me and my african american child who is a freshman at Dartmouth.

According to Dartmouth’s common Data for the class of 08:

11,734 students applied

2173 were admitted.

9561 students were denied or waitlisted.

of the 1081 that enrolled;

79 - African Americans
72 Hispanics
38 native Americans

Total 189

If we were to remove this 189 students from the equation it represents .0197 % (less than 2%) of the 9561 students that “did not get a spot because one of these people took it”. what would be the excuse for the remaining 9372 that are left out in the cold (which probably includes a few african americans, hispanics and native americans in this number also?

FWIW, of the 7 schools that my daughter was accepted to 5 of them she was the only applicant from her school. the other 2 schools, 2 applied both were accepted, 4 applied, 2 were accepted (1 black, 1 white- sorry the 2 asian students were denied. The way it worked out the 2 admitted had better stats than the 2 who were denied).

xiggi · April 19, 2005, 11:36am

Simba, what is happening to us? Here you are arguing AGAINST AA and I have to disagree with you. Only a few months ago, on our discussion on the CC Caf

parentny · April 19, 2005, 11:52am

I think AA is a must policy and a beneficial one. However, I think they should be helping to focus on minority kids from urban areas rather than kids whose parents already make $150,000. These kids do not contribute to diversity. They are already living in suburbs and have all the advantages in life.

Why I like monetary requirements with AA policy: It will allow examples and more kid will work hard to move out of their suffocating environments.

simba · April 19, 2005, 12:01pm

sybbie: You are comparing apples and oranges. 189 enrolled, but how many were admitted? The issue is not at a global scale…it becomes an issue only when two one non AA and one AA apply from the same school.

If I were to quote just one kid - upwardbound1, "i always thought that I was a staunch supporter of affirmative action. I think it is awesome that in some cases, people from underprivileged backgrounds are given a better chance to succeed through this system. However, i am FURIOUS that it has been turned around so that now those in the majority find it more or less impossible to get into college. I experienced this firsthand.

A multiracial classmate with WORSE test scores and GPA and less ECs than myself was accepted to every presitigious university he applied to (Northwestern, Pomona, U Chicago), while i was waitlisted or rejected everywhere except my safety schools.

This person comes from an almost identical economic background to me - a moderately privileged suburbanite with at least one white parent. But because his father was part black, he has the world handed to him on a platter when he applies to schools. This is ridiculous. He enjoyed EVERY opportunity that his white classmates had. His race never presented him any hardship - he’s employed, respected by peers and teachers. So am I, but because I am white, I’ll end up at a lower-tier institution, despite my superior qualifications."

whether you hate AA or are 100% in favor of it, the fact remains that there is a backlash - there is a perception that AA hurts on an idividual basis and there is anecdotal evidence to back up that claim. I hear similar sentiments even in work place regarding promotions between genders. Even on this board there are affluent minority parents who would still love to play the race card to get an edge. They cringe at the slightest notion that their kids don’t deserve AA treatment.

Something needs to be done to remove those perceptions or the backlash/polarization will continue.

sybbie719 · April 19, 2005, 12:03pm

I don’t agree with this statement because there is something to be learned from everyone. A poor minority can learn from a minority with money and this person can actually be an inspiration for that person to do better .

A a “poor parent” of a child that attends an elite school, don’t you beleive that you child has learned something from his/her peers? I know that my child’s life has truly been enriched by the friends that she has met along the way. She spent her whole middle and high school life with a core group of friends that included 4 asian girs. 1- Chines & Japanese they have been friends since 1st grade, one Vietnamese, 2 Chinese.

She has 2 african american male friends who are fluent in mandarine chinese, 1 was president of the Asian-American society at their high school and is now at RPI with his best friend who is Korean. The other who is older than them had the opportunity to spend a year in China after graduating from college, teaching english and is now in a PhD Program in East Asian Studies at Princeton.

It is one thing to be book smart but it helps no one to be life stupid. to learn from many helps you to broaden your own frame of reference and view life using multiple lenses.

simba · April 19, 2005, 12:06pm

Xiggi: You must be up very early. It is 9:00 in LA. I am not complaing or disputing the benefits of AA. But as I said before, there is a (growing) backlash that needs to be addressed. Or the debate will go on.

taxguy · April 19, 2005, 12:13pm

Blossom notes,“The number just aren’t that big!”
Garland notes,“I also dispute the fact that because a kid with lower “stats” gets in and a non-minority student does not, that we can know that that non-minority would have otherwise gotten in.”

Everyone is for affirmative action until their own kid’s ax is gored. Let me give a specific example that came from our high school last year. It created quite a stir.

There were two kids who applied to the same ivy schools and also applied to some LACS. One was Jewish with 1490 SATs, great SAT2, editor of school newspaper, all As in tough courses, very good ECs and was one of the top writers for a student that I have witnessed. The other was an African American boy,whose parents were both doctors. I can assure you that this kid did NOT come from an economically disadvantaged home.His SATs were 50 points less than that of the other child, had a few Bs in school (although not many), was not a top athlete but he did have good ECs too. He got into every ivy that the other kids applied to, and the other kid got waitlisted at both ivy schools! Moreover, the African American kid got merit aid at several LACs while the other got nothing! So please don’t tell me that the percentages are small. To one of these kids, the percentages are meaningless!

Moreover to say that colleges are not trying to make amends for past discrimination but simply want to have a diverse campus is hooey. This is just a nice facade to accomplish a goal with less judicial backlash. A rose is a rose by any name!

If they were so interested in diversity, how about having a set percentage of Rasterfarians, hindus, native americans, albinos, folks of Russion backgrounds etc.

For what it’s worth, I am against anything that isn’t merit based in admissions. Thus, I am also against legacy benefits (even though I know this won’t change) and am against quotes put on for each state. Why should a better applicant from NY get penalized because he didn’t grow up in Montana?

Again, I am not against all AA especially for kids from economically disadvantaged homes. However, AA based on skin color or on heritage or race is idiotic.

sybbie719 · April 19, 2005, 12:25pm

Simba,

Of the 11,734 students that applied, 437 were African American (3.72%). 195 admitted Admit rate 44.6%. Of the 195 admitted, 116 chose to go elsewhere. (The 242 that were rejected/waitlisted now must bow their heads in shame because the concept of you can get in anywhere because you’re black did not work for them)

<a href=“http://www.thedartmouth.com/article.php?aid=2004051101030&sheadline=class%20of%2008%20admissions&sauthor=&stext=[/url]”>http://www.thedartmouth.com/article.php?aid=2004051101030&sheadline=class%20of%2008%20admissions&sauthor=&stext=</a>

For those who argue that minority students receive an unfair advantage in higher education admissions, Dartmouth’s admissions statistics could provide fodder for the debate.

College officials nationwide defend the use of race because of the educational benefit that is derived from a diverse student body. To achieve such diversity, many schools have found it important to consider race as one factor in their admissions process.

The opponents of affirmative action in admissions claim that colleges considering race give an unfair advantage to minority applicants, making it easier for those students to get in, while at the same time making it more difficult for white students to gain admission.

But the use of race as a factor in Dartmouth’s admissions decisions appears to be making more than just a nominal difference. Dartmouth accepted 44.6 percent of African Americans who applied – 2.5 times higher than the overall rate of 18.3 percent. Native Americans were accepted at 34.6 percent and Latinos at 29 percent. White students, on the other hand, had a more difficult time getting accepted; only 16.2 percent of white, non-international students received letters of acceptance.

“The rate of admissions is higher because we want to have a diverse student population,” said Dean of Admissions Karl Furstenberg.

This is partially attributable to the higher number of Asian American applicants compared to the other minority groups. A record 1,513 Asian Americans applied for a spot in the Class of 2008, compared to just 437 African Americans.

zagat · April 19, 2005, 12:26pm

You pick an interesting example. A kid who didn’t get into a number of good schools. Believe me, the reason ALL those schools rejected him was not AA.

Backlash? I hear a lot of whining. What is the implication of said backlash except that we’ll have to go on ignoring the ignorant rants?

momsdream · April 19, 2005, 12:32pm

Wow, I would hate to think that you all don’t think I offer anything diverse just because my income is at the 6 figure level. Do I really have the mindset of a white, suburban soccer mom? Are my experiences transparent because of my income?

Hmmmm…and this business of “playing the race card”…what is that? Checking the box? Ok, so don’t check the box. Also, don’t show up on capus because someone might SEE that you’re black. Don’t write about any of your incredible experiences as a black american in your essay because you might tip off that you’re black. If you live in a mostly black neighborhood, use a different address. And, if you have an ethinic sounding name, for heaven’s sake…change it!

After all, you wouldn’t want to be accused of “playing the race card”.

Gosh, I just don’t know what will happen with all of these AfAm being admitted. There’s already such a HUGE population at top schools! 6%? Man, how DID that happen? 2 or 3% is fine…but 6??? That’s like, like…30 more African Americans in that class! Yes, we HAVE to do something about this…it’s bordering on being epidemic!

And to think, tens of thousands of white kids are being turned down because these schools are admitting maybe 30 AfAms out of their applicant pool who don’t match scores with whites. Wow…there must be some new math that I need to learn…or it’s one big conspiracy! That must be it, it’s a conspiracy.

I find the “feeder school” issue to be more concerning.

mini · April 19, 2005, 12:35pm

College officials nationwide defend the use of race because of the educational benefit that is derived from a diverse student body. To achieve such diversity, many schools have found it important to consider race as one factor in their admissions process."

“The rate of admissions is higher because we want to have a diverse student population,” said Dean of Admissions Karl Furstenberg."

Again, look at the argument. AA is not being used because of any particular effort to provide educational benefits to minority students, but because it results in a better academic experience for majority ones (e.g. white folks). Let’s just be clear about whom the colleges publicly say AA benefits.

taxguy · April 19, 2005, 12:39pm

Zagat notes," Believe me, the reason ALL those schools rejected him was not AA."

Response: This kids attended the same high school. Because of the “scandal,” their scores and GPAs were known. I also knew both kids and the parents of both kids. Thus, Pray tell, how you know for sure that AA had no effect? Were you there when admission decisions and decisions on financial aid were made?

Momsdream also notes,“And to think, tens of thousands of white kids are being turned down because these schools are admitting maybe 30 AfAms out of their applicant pool who don’t match scores with whites”

Response: Statistics are irrelevant to the kids that didn’t get in and didn’t get merit aid! What do you say to he and his parents? Do you say that “don’t feel badly. It only affected about 30 kids in your school?” I’m sure that will make him feel really great!

I have a better proposal than Simba. There should be a box on all college applications asking if you agree with the principles of affirmative action? All those that check yes, can be displaced by URMs if the college feels there is a need for more diversity. Those that don’t check the box, can’t be displaced for that reason. Lets see how many gladly check the box.

Many years ago a well-known folk singer noted in a song: “Love me, love me, I’m a liberal.” If they add this one box, we who do not check off the box will indeed love you.

momsdream · April 19, 2005, 12:42pm

Mini, whenever I read these rants, I always think to myself “now this is ONE person who would would really benefit from AA because this person needs exposure to talented AfAms with interesting backgrounds”.

There was another thread where a white student was concerend about his college decision because the school he chose had too many Jews. I thought the same thing about him…I was glad that he was going to attend such a school…as the exposure will be great for him and he’ll learn lessons that will carry him though life and make him a better person.

So, I agree 100% with you.

I also have to admit that I’m concerned about my son getting one of these kids as a roommate. But, I guess he needs to learn, too. We don’t get much exposure to this mindset around here in liberal Philadelphia. Thank goodness colleges see fit to take all of these schools of thought and put them into one place where they can learn from each other.

Proposed Solution to AA backlash

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