Qualified, but cut, what now?

Parents Forum
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<p>I couldn’t agree more with Mombot’s post, and I’m surprised so many posters wrote against the idea of a gap year. To me it’s by far your best choice although I understand how frightening that must be.</p>

<p>It seems unlikely to me that anyone would get the most out of anyplace they really don’t want to be. </p>

<p>It is very clear that you were indeed, as a family, naive about the application process. With the education you’re now getting, reapplying would probably yield much better results. Especially with a well planned gap year to add to the mix.</p>

<p>Peege, you talk about being practical and thinking the U of M is the best idea. However, it doen’t seem that your son shares your thinking. This is his college experience. His career launch. To go to a place he’s not happy about rather than take 15 months to do something enriching seems short sighted.</p>

<p>I detect a little anti elite college sentiment in your posts. Step back and realize your son feels differently. Elite schools do come with their own set of benefits, as does expanding ones world by going out of state, and if your son gets into a program that he’s excited about, his liklihood of success is much greater.</p>

<p>Good luck whatever you decide!</p>

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<p>Peege:</p>

<p>Why did your son have to take two foreign languages? To my knowledge no high school or college requires two. But top colleges DO care for evidence that a student who claims to be interested in science has done more than what is required to graduate from high school. In other words, summer research programs, finding a mentor early on, etc… </p>

<p>If you do a search for Berurah, another midwesterner, you will see that her son started doing research when he was 9 or 10. He did not get into Yale, his early choice, but he got into some great schools (Johns Hopkins and Duke) with major scholarships. I have no doubt that his passion for science came through in his essays, recommendations, as well as in his stats.</p>

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<p>"However I am not going to back off the position that there are lots of kids getting advantages that the average kid does not have. If your Dad is a nuclear chemist, that’s a big edge. C’mon, get real. "</p>

<p>Sure, there are lots of kids who have advantages that other kids, including yours and mine don’t have. Also, our kids have advantages that many other kids don’t either.</p>

<p>I’m not going to stew what other kids have that mine don’t, though I have done my best to provide my kids with the guidance and exposure that I have been able to. Honestly, I am far more concerned about the many kids who have far less than mine do than I’m concerned about how some kids’ have advantages of millionaire parents and having parents who are nuclear scientists. My kids have lots of opportunities to go to college and to make good lives for themselves: It’s far harder for the kids who grow up with no resources, bad schools, disinterested, substsance abusing parents, etc. </p>

<p>I also know that in the case of my own kids, there was much at home and in our community and their schools that they chose not to take advantage of, which caused them to miss out on some things. When it comes to things like selecting a college, any student with the intelligence to be applying to places like Ivies also is smart enough to be able to use the Internet and guidebooks to get information that will boost their chances of getting into their dream schools. The more one helps such a teen realize their own power and responsiblity in attaining their dreams, the better equipped they’ll be to live the kind of lives that make them happy.</p>

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<p>I really don’t think my son(2006 grad) had any extra advantages. Well, if you count a really kooky family!</p>

<p>We live in the rural south, really rural and REALLY south. Went to local public high and was NOT a NMF. Wasn’t even NMSF. Why? Took his SAT sophomore year before New SAT with writing and PSAT junior year was with the NEW SAT. So unless, you took it again in the right time frame one was ineligible for National Merit without the new SAT scores. And being who he was/is he wasn’t going to take it again.</p>

<p>He did sign himself up for his SAT IIs that he needed for the respective schools, MIT, CalTech, Penn’s M&T, Princeton and whatever others he needed. Just made sure he took them after he had the AP class or in his case, time spent in the library studying the AP books.</p>

<p>Since our public did not offer a lot of APs, or higher level maths he spent class time in the library teaching himself Def EQ, and AP physics C. There were more letters in his math book than numbers, needless to say I wasn’t much help. No test prep here, that costs money. However, our little library did/will request books from other libraries in the state to help him study.</p>

<p>And he found his research online. Did it for 3 summers. Of course he had the nastiest commutes, we only have 1 car so it was either a long drive and a long wait or a long bus ride but he did it.</p>

<p>As a single parent with no dad in the picture I can say my kiddos don’t have a lot of “advantages” but with sports, Ecs and their sibs really did give them an “advantage” others might not suspect.</p>

<p>I was thrilled with son’s MIT, CalTech, Duke and Penn acceptances. Surprised at his Princeton one. He took it all in stride as that he didn’t have any one school as the 'one". And in all honesty he comes across as a pretty “average” kid. From a kooky family!</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>Kat:</p>

<p>Only in your brilliant family would your S appear average! I’ve been following their college saga. :)</p>

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<p>Marite, Good question about the foreign languages. I think he wanted to take the most challenging courses he could within his high school, believing that would be impressive on his applications. He did like the foreign languages though and moved from German class to Spanish class with no problems. I was surprised since the two languages have little in common. </p>

<p>You’re right that some special research would have been a better choice and what I would recommend to other people who have 9th/10th grade kids. Many of the applications ask for research project information. If we were smarter we would have been looking at the applications in 9th and 10th grade to see what they were looking for. Parents of younger kids, I’d advise you to get sample applications as a starting point. We didn’t realize these were on the apps until our son started to apply. Our bad.</p>

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<p>“Our kid took two PSATs in high school and one SAT. He got perfect scores in Math, Writing and Verbal, just not on the same test. He had no prep classes.”</p>

<p>It’s clear that your son is very bright. I’m sure that his scores didn’t keep him out of the top colleges. Everything you’ve posted indicates to me that he probably has been riding on his very high intelligence, but hasn’t been diving into passions – doing the kind of thing that particularly the very top colleges look for.</p>

<p>Even how he went about applying to colleges indicates this. He took the easy way – selected a very easy safety where (assuming things still go the way they did when my S applied) he knew he was an automatic admit. The application also is a snap to fill out. With that out of the way, your S probably didnt bother to do more research, just assumed that one of the Ivies would come through for him. Based on how you’ve described him and his test prep, I also doubt that he spent a lot of time with his Ivy applications either. </p>

<p>If you keep focusing on how other students may have had better GCs and parents who could help them more, you’re doing your S a disservice. He is the one who decided to apply where he did. It is his future that he seems not to have put a lot of thought into figuring out the best ways of attaining it.</p>

<p>In a perfect world, you could have been more informed and assertive too about helping him select colleges to apply to. After all, you’d read the articles about what the competition is like. Still, it’s not your fault that his options were so limited. The students whom I know who got into the very top colleges were doing a lot to get there: spending a lot of time studying for SAT IIs, finding out info about colleges, finding boards like this on their own, using guidebooks, doing their applications early enough to have a teacher look them over and to rewrite essays. They also knew enough about the process to have match and safety schools that they’d enjoy going to. Even if such students didn’t get into their dream schools, they still ended up at places where they wanted to be.</p>

<p>Students who are willing to work like that to get to their dream schools aren’t pushed into this by parents. This is just the way that such students are made. Most people, no matter how smart, aren’t made like that, which is perfectly fine as long as they realize that their options will probably be more limited than those of people who are more driven to work and research to achieve their own high goals.</p>

<p>“You’re right that some special research would have been a better choice and what I would recommend to other people who have 9th/10th grade kids”</p>

<p>The students who do the best research aren’t the ones whose parents make them. They are students who do research because they love doing research. These also are students who naturally and happily go above and beyond what’s required in h.s. term papers. These also are students who want to do research so badly that they’ll look for opportunities to do so over the summer instead of chilling like what many other students prefer to do.</p>

<p>There’s a big difference between students who work for the grade and to get into an Ivy and the students who take pride in their grades while also working hard because they love academics. The former students do what’s required for the “A”. The latter happily go far beyond what’s required for the “A”, and often have to force their parents to let them do the extra intellectual things that the students’ passions drive them to seek out.</p>

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<p>Katwkittens, I cannot agree more with your post, and certainly cannot say it any better, so I won’t try.</p>

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<p>I guess it makes no sense to me- to take the PSAT in middle school
The only point to the PSAT- or at least the main point- is that scores from junior year in high school, will qualify you ( or not) for NMS.</p>

<p>THe point to taking the SATs in middle school, is to qualify for the CTY programs.
<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Talented_Youth[/url]”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Talented_Youth&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>( at DUKE it is called TIP
<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talent_Identification_Program[/url]”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talent_Identification_Program&lt;/a&gt;)</p>

<p>Colorado has a program now too!
<a href=“Morgridge College of Education | College of Education”>Morgridge College of Education | College of Education;

<p>Our main reason to have my daughter take the SAT in 7th grade was to simply have the exposure( neither one of us had ever taken SAT - we had no idea what it was like), as well to keep her 6th grade friend company and because to her- tests were a big puzzle and were fun!</p>

<p>We had never heard of 7th graders taking it before, but we had never heard of a lot of things before we had kids.</p>

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<p>“I really don’t think my son(2006 grad) had any extra advantages. Well, if you count a really kooky family”</p>

<p>Any kid with parents interested enough in their college plans to be posting on CC has advantages that most kids don’t have. :)</p>

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<p>

And some kids who work like that actually don’t do it to get into the dream schools. And they don’t even have goals or ambitions that they can articulate. They just get bored and drive their parents crazy if they aren’t out in the world or deep in their interests doing all that stuff. I guess what I mean is that some kids are shot out of a cannon at birth. If they don’t find research opportunities in 9th grade they do Moot Court or run the newspaper or they start tutoring kids and then they realize that the program could be run better so they start their own version or they invent a program at the local hospital to deal with Spanish-speaking patients etc. </p>

<p>As a parent of one shot from a cannon and one still lazing in a metaphorical clear pool in a metaphorical green and sparkling meadow, let me be clear. Some bloom early. Enjoy it and support it. Some bloom late. Enjoy it and support it. There is nowhere anywhere any data I know of that says that one type of kid has a better type of life than the other type of kid - by the time they both get to be 28. Or 35. Or 50.</p>

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<p>"And some kids who work like that actually don’t do it to get into the dream schools. And they don’t even have goals or ambitions that they can articulate. They just get bored and drive their parents crazy if they aren’t out in the world or deep in their interests doing all that stuff. "</p>

<p>Yeah, and their grades also may suck big time. (Parent of kids who work hard – in the things that they like, which usually aren’t academics!).</p>

<p>“There is nowhere anywhere any data I know of that says that one type of kid has a better type of life than the other type of kid - by the time they both get to be 28. Or 35. Or 50.”</p>

<p>True. Most people aren’t Ivy grads, millionaire executives, etc. ,but most people have reasonably happy lives. Going to an Ivy, making lots of money, getting lots of attention for one’s vocational success – none of those things mean that a person is happy or fulfilled. Neither money nor name brands nor having jobs that others look up to results in happiness, which comes from inside, not externals.</p>

<p>“Success” also relates to one’s own definition.</p>

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<p>NSM-</p>

<p>Oh you are so right!!! CC has been, by far, the biggest “advantage” my kiddos have had. For years and I do mean, YEARS, it has gotten us through 4 kiddo’s app years and my first has graduated and is off to grad school. </p>

<p>All with CC’s help. And in particular this forum and all its many wonderful posters! We didn’t know how to fill out a FAFSA or what it was, couldn’t locate the Common App at school, didn’t know about SAT IIs, LACs, merit aid vs. need, scholarships, service academy appointments…</p>

<p>The list is endless. CC helped with all.</p>

<p>Kat
(don’t think I have said Thank You recently)</p>

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<p>NSM I like what you have to say in both posts. I too feel our son has advantages that others don’t have. It’s just that others have more advantages too. </p>

<p>We come to these perspectives over years of experiences and different cultural backgrounds, so it’s not surprising that there are a lot of different viewpoints. I have respect for people who disagree with me, but I’m not persuaded by some of them.</p>

<p>I am strongly in agreement with your statements that the vast majority of students applying have far fewer advantages than yours and mine (and the children represented by the parents here? can we agree on that?) After all, the parents here have the time to be on this site. Most families are living paycheck to paycheck, both working and running around at night to get everything else done. I want fairness for those people too, that’s all. I know the colleges add points for no college grads, URM, probably some other things too. It’s just far more complicated than that, is all I’d like to say. Some disadvantages get a boost, others don’t. Some advantages count against you, others don’t. All in all, it’s a pretty good system, but could be improved. </p>

<p>Most other countries do give heavier weight to test scores than our country. Even though that might benefit our son, I don’t think that’s necessarily the best solution either. As you say, our son could have taken more initiative. I think he realizes that now and we’ll see if he applies that knowledge in college. </p>

<p>BTW, even though he is smart, there are plenty of “off the chart” geniuses out there who start college as youngsters and could run rings around him. So I don’t have any illusions that he’s that “special.”</p>

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<p>I think everyone has advantages (in different ways of course) in getting into college and in life in general. The person just needs to figure out what they are and whether or not he/she wants to push them to their limits. For example, this summer, I have been working with my Spanish instructor from last year in order to improve my writing skills. I would write journal entries in Spanish, and he would read them, correct them, and explain why my mistakes were what they were. Of course, I didn’t have to do this “work” during my summer vacation (and, of course, he didn’t need to teach me during the summer if he didn’t want to do so). I could have just relaxed and enjoyed the fact that I had survived my first year at college. (I did well in my classes.) However, I didn’t want to do this. I wanted to keep my skills polished instead of losing them during a four month long break. I also wanted to improve, which is exacted what I did in the long run and even made a stronger, personal connection with an instructor in a field, which I am interested. By taking advantage of the offer to help me during the summer months, I think I created many opportunities for myself. (I knew this instructor already as I had him as a teacher both semesters last year.)</p>

<p>The same is true with college admissions. There are many places in the community in which one can receive help (in and outside of the high school). The applicant just needs to seek them.</p>

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<p>CPTofthehouse - your post #182 is awesome!! Lucky folks you are to have a GC who really really cares - and gets the job done - there should be more like that :)</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Show me a school that has a “point” system and gives extra points. </p>

<p>There are no “points” given. These things are tip factors which are taken into consideration with other things. Many selective schools do take a holstic approach to admissions which basically says that those who much have been given, much is required and students are looked at in relation to the opportunites they have had and whether or not they have taken advantage of those opportunities. Yes a school will wink at the SAT scores of a first gen student because they may have not had the "benefit’ of having a parent attend college, but first gerneration college student “tip” also looks at other factors such as poverty and low performing schools because first generation college students are more likely to experience this. </p>

<p>College admissions is not now nor has it even been a straight up numbers things because of disparity in education in this country and not everyone brings the same thing do the table. A kid who scores a 1380 despite being at an underperforming school where less than 50% of its students graduate and very few are admitted to 4 year schools, is the first in his/her family to attend college, that works an afterschool job to help add to the family income, maybe the translator for the family and still manages to get a 4.0 in the most rigerous curriculum that his/her particular school offers, and manages to give back to others is probably going to be looked at more favorably than a student who comes from a middle class background with 2 college educated parents, won’t cut pies and simply rest upon his/her laurels that they can get good grades with minimal effort who scored the same 1380 withthe benefit of prep classes.</p>

<p>Overall what colleges do is try to build a class that is aligned with its institutional mission. So while it is great to have rocket scientists and a student who is great in physics, it is equally important to have artists, dancers, musicians, english majors, rich kids, poor kids, city kids, blacks, whites, hispanics, asians and everything in between because learning takes place both inside and outside of the classroom and it helps to enhance the experience.</p>

<p>I don’t think you can expect your son to move forward because you have not moved forward. While consciously you may think you have I don’t think you have fully reconciled your self to the fact that what has been done is done. One of the best lessons I learned in college was when one of my professors came straight out and said "sometimes you gotta know what is your **<strong><em>, and I had to say to myself, Jane (her name), this is your </em></strong> and something you gotta work out.</p>

<p>The net-net is that you have to simply come to terms as to what is his stuff and what is your stuff. It’s okay to say “this is me”, for you to have your stuff, issues, schisms, whatever, but ya gotta own it.</p>

<p>You already know what options are available; have kid go to college, take a gap year and apply all over again, transfer. You can choose to either curse the darkness or light a candle and move on.</p>

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<p>Northstarmom, Sybbie and Kat have said what I would have said if I were a better writer!!!</p>

<p>Kids are evaluated in the context of their opportunities. I DID live in the Minneapolis are until five years ago (my kids took the SAT in junior high, as part of the talent search program), and I know many students who are now in college from that time. Some did go to selective/Ivies. They were the kids that, like Alumother says, you just couldn’t hold back. I do know someone whose kid thought he was a sure thing for Harvard a few years ago. After all, he was the valedictorian and had SATs in the mid 1400’s. His parents were appalled when he didn’t get in. They, too, seemed to believe that a particular score on one test was the golden ticket. What many parents here are trying to tell you, is that it’s not enough to be bright. </p>

<p>Also, my son’s college has students from every state. The kids I spoke of, regarding research etc, are from all over the country. The issue is what does any particular student do to enrich their lives. They won’t all do research or publish poetry or work for software companies in HS. But they will find something to challenge themselves outside of school.</p>

<p>My discomfort with some of your posts is what I perceive to be the implication that kids who do get into elite colleges did so through family wealth or connections, and that’s just not true. (most of the time!) Knowing the kids I know from my son’s HS and college, the kids that get into the most selective schools ABSOLUTELY belong there. Unfortunately, there are many other kids who also “deserve” to get in, but don’t due to limited space. The really bright kid just moves on, and makes a contribution wherever they end up.</p>

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<p>SJMom, the last sentence of your post reminds me of a young man in my daughter’s high school class. He had a horrendous childhood - mother jailed in another country for fraud, father disabled, unable to work, no money. He was able to attend the catholic high school because some people pieced together his tuition. He didn’t have ANY advantages at all in terms of SAT prep tests, etc. </p>

<p>He was accepted to Notre Dame, but could not enroll, simply could not come up with any money at all. He had also applied to a local fourth tier college as a safety. One of those places that probably doesn’t appear on anyone’s list, unless it’s the last stop before community college. And he was so happy and excited to go!!! He couldn’t wait to get to college and get started, and, when we were talking to him mid-August, you could just tell that in his mind, this fourth tier school was every bit as exciting and interesting to him as if it were Princeton, etc. </p>

<p>We haven’t kept up with him, but, I’m sure he’s doing fantastic.</p>

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<p>

I would <em>slightly</em> disagree with this. At certain schools, certainly not the most selective, admissions IS numbers driven with respect to acceptance – if you have a certain GPA/SAT/ACT combination you’re in. But that doesn’t mean it’s an automatic rejection if you don’t meet the automatic entry numbers.</p>