<p>OP, your son can still take AP Computer Science exam if he wants, just ask local schools. He is indeed very capable, as he has improved SAT that much in recent years. No need to worry what SAT scores he earned as a 7th.</p>
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<p>Thanks for sharing that. Yes he was among the top students in middle school.If he had gone to the feeder line local high school he would have been right at the top with his peers . However, he switched to another high school in a different school district with a large number of state and multiple grand recognized TIP students. The high school has ~20 National Merit semifinalists. It is a regular wealthy suburban high school. So, he experienced mismatch in high school. Consequently had to do a lot of remedial work to catch up with the top of his class. I just do not know if it is enough to allow him to succeed at at a top college, since it was done so quickly. Which is why I am asking. Thanks for sharing.</p>
<p>collegealum314, I am not sure if OP’s son would fit into your description of y intercept, slope or even deritive. Perhaps it’s a discontinous function case in SAT matter.</p>
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<p>That is exactly my worry. Thank you</p>
<p>I do believe an individual can come from behind academically, and rise quickly. We saw that with our daughter. </p>
<p>Keep an open mind about MIT. It is incredibly hard for everyone, but some students really thrive in that environment. If your son applies and is accepted, he can visit classes and get a measure of the level of work.</p>
<p>I remember when my daughter was a high-school junior and spent an overnight on the MIT campus. We thought she’d come back early the next morning, but she had a chance to sit in on some physics classes. She showed up at the hotel 30 hours later, full of stories about students staying up all hours struggling with p-sets, showing us pages of her notebook filled top to bottom with equations, eyes brimming with excitement.</p>
<p>I didn’t get it, really, but she took to MIT like a duck to water. It could be the same way for your son — you never know.</p>
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<p>I’d say that experience would give him better odds than average of being successful at a top STEM school. He’s already had the experience of working hard to catch up.</p>
<p>OTOH, his Math II subject test score is below the 25th percentile for admits ([Admissions</a> Statistics | MIT Admissions](<a href=“http://mitadmissions.org/apply/process/stats]Admissions”>Admissions statistics | MIT Admissions)). If I were looking for something to worry about, it would be that, not 5-year-old talent search scores.</p>
<p>Personally, I wouldn’t discourage applying to a reach, even if I thought that attending would be a less-optimal choice. What I would do would be to encourage finding multiple good matches, where I’d call a match “firmly in the top half of incoming students in his likely major.” (Unfortunately, it’s hard to find score breakdowns like that. But what you really want is for him to be well-placed in his classes, not “much better at math and science than all the English majors, but the weakest in every Engineering class.”)</p>
<p>I agree with CalAlum that a visit that includes attending classes would help clarify the decision, were he admitted.</p>
<p>I would trust the AdCom. If he’s good enough to be accepted he’s good enough to do the work. Look at their retention rate.</p>
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<p>His junior year math scores are SAT/ PSAT 690 and 750 in math ii. </p>
<p>He took two SAT practice tests over this summer and scored 800s each time. These were benchmark tests (without prep) to find out if he had any areas of weakness. Then he took a third practice SAT test last week before the Oct SAT. Again he scored an 800. So, something has abruptly changed in his understanding of math. This has been a pattern with him that his scores jump abruptly. For example, the PSAT writing went from 45 to 76 in one year, but more importantly jumped from 620 to 760 within a week. I believe the same type of thing has now happened in math this summer. A friend of his, who is very good in math told him about a book. Son’s scores have jumped since he started reading it. </p>
<p>I do not believe 800 in SAT math and math ii is too elusive. Although, I do understand that 800 in SAT and SAT math ii does not mean he is all that good in math either.</p>
<p>Keep in mind he started with a 320 in math. :)</p>
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<p>That is a good point. I think being honest to them is important. I think they need to know about his middle school SAT scores, even though they do not ask for them. Also, perhaps jr year 750 math ii scores, even if he gets the expected 800 in December.</p>
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<p>No, they don’t. For starters, in terms of the 750 on the SAT Math II, hundreds of applicants can show a similar jump with a re-take – MIT adcoms will simply take the higher number and think nothing of it.</p>
<p>Providing detailed information about how he did in 7th grade is totally irrelevant and may even hurt his application in the sense that he could easily come off as unusually fixated (obsessed?) about his standardized test scores. </p>
<p>I get that you are convinced your son might not cut it at a top school, despite his achievements (which seem enormous, given the school context you’ve provided here). I suspect you might even go so far as to try to influence the way he writes his application. Perhaps on some level, you just don’t want him to get in.</p>
<p>I get that you’ve already made up your mind. But since you’re here on the MIT board asking for opinions, as another parent, I have to say I think you’re completely, utterly, terribly wrong. </p>
<p>Now … where’s collegealum, to inject a little humor back into this thread?</p>
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<p>I totally, totally disagree. (I also kind of disagree with the decision to take the Math subject test cold - sample tests would have given you a benchmark. But that horse has already left the stable. Don’t be shoving more horses out after it by feeling some obligation to report lower scores where you aren’t required to.)</p>
<p>There’s a huge difference between the kid who can get a 750 cold, and the kid who gets a 750 after countless hours of studying and multiple retests. </p>
<p>Your kid is not a low-scoring kid with a weak school background. Your kid is a high-scoring kid with a strong school background. So yeah, I also think you’re completely, utterly, terribly wrong. And that you’re running the risk that the self-doubts you plant will be more damaging to your kid’s performance than any actual weakness inherent in your kid.</p>
<p>Unless you specifically requested that the 7th grade scores be kept, they were very likely removed from your son’s file anyway.</p>
<p>[SAT</a> - Special Circumstances - Sunday Testing and more](<a href=“The SAT – SAT Suite | College Board”>Additional SAT Registration Options – SAT Suite)</p>
<p>You should be proud at the impressive jump in his scores and the amount of material he has been able to learn over the last 5 years.</p>
<p>Scores usually remain on the record for 5 years, so 7th grade may still be there depending on what month he took it. Of course, there is score choice so that is sort of irrelevant.</p>
<p>It’s really hard to answer the OP’s question. I don’t have much doubt the OP could “get through” the GIRs (first year classes,) but I don’t think that is what he wants to know. And that’s not a good measure of how you want to choose a school. You want to be able to do well enough to get something out of the major of your choosing.</p>
<p>No one here wants to say, “If you only had X qualification, then you will struggle at MIT.” In general, I take the following view: For some impressive qualifications, they mean that you <em>must</em> be above a certain high bar for intellect. However, if you don’t have that qualification, it doesn’t mean that you aren’t above that same high bar. It just means you are a question mark. For one, people make mistakes and blemishes may not be indicative of talent. Secondly, the predictive power of scores depend somewhat on your background. Instead, what I will mainly comment on is what habits of success are likely to help you at MIT.</p>
<p>With regard to the record, I would be more concerned about the 4 on the AP chem test than the 7th grade SAT. AP chem is a difficult test, probably the hardest science one, and a 5 would indicate that you are capable of mastering a subject matter that is somewhat subtle at a high level. (The SATII chem is really easy, as is SATII bio, SATII math, and AP bio.) However, if a person got a 4 on the AP chem test or a 700/800 on the SATII with only an honors chem class and not an AP test, then I would be more inclined to believe they may succeed at MIT.</p>
<p>Similarly, a 92% in AP physics is kind of low. It’s not so much about whether the glass is 92% or 99% full, but rather, you should have an understanding of the material deep enough that the only mistakes you make are stupid mistakes. When you are learning the material, it shouldn’t necessarily be “easy.” You shouldn’t have a habit of taking everything at face value. Rather you should be trying to connect it to everything else. If a theory has been stated in a way that is not completely intuitive, you should search for different ways to think about it until it is intuitive. And by developing a model, you should have an eye for the extrema–that is, if this model is correct, then in a certain case, this is what would happen. You should <em>feel</em> how the theory connects to other things, and you need to have an attention to subtelty to do that. And so when you are asked a question on a test, your model is sophisticated enough to answer it. And if you can’t answer that question, you should have felt something wrong with your model when you first formulated it and asked the question before. These are some of the habits of mind that are useful. To me, a 4 on the AP chem is kind of like you sat in a class, memorized some algorithms and understood them at a basic level, but in general, you kind of let things stick to you rather than trying to rigorously understand them. </p>
<p>In terms of mathematical maturity, one way to test himself would be to take the AMC12. The test is in February, too late for admissions but you’ll get the unofficial result fast enough so that you have it before you make a decision. You should be able to get around 90-95/130 without any math team training. I did so with only algebra I and geometry and basically no math team training. If you can do this, I wouldn’t be worried about your math level too much. At the very least, it says a lot more about it than 800 on the SATI.</p>
<p>There are people who don’t fit one or more of the criteria I just laid out and thrived in non-theoretical majors. One of the regular posters had some trouble in the GIRs (but still passed) and also some of the theoretical classes like thermo, but did extremely well in the bio major. So obviously it was worth it to go to MIT in that case.</p>
<p>It’s hard to make predictions, but there are certain indicators and qualities that can suggest success or lack thereof.</p>
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<p>That is a great observation. I believe that is exactly what he was doing. </p>
<p>My feeling is that the course load was heavier than optimum (for his grade, age and readiness) and he was really robbed for time that he needed to throughly study all the subjects the way he wanted to study them. He mentioned this several times through the year. Most people I have spoken to tell me that it is extremely uncommon in his school to take the combo he took 5 STEM, (three sciences, Pre Calculus and AP Comp Sci) with AP English Lang and AP US History. I was told that AP, esp. the last two can create a lot of busy work that is not always the case in college. I was told that many times a kid who is on the math team or Computer Science team may take this type of a load because he already knows the material in one or more subject. (Usually done by kids with 7th grade TIP grand recognitions). Some will take 5 APs, but include a langauge they already know. Some will include a PE or some other simple elective, such as study hall etc. However, this was not the case with him. </p>
<p>The idea was to see if he could handle the material in all seven full year rigorous courses with the time constraints they create. Our goal was not necessarily to see if he was ready for MIT, but engineering, generally. I feel that his perfomrance does suggest he has crossed that threshold. At most colleges the Calc BC and the AP will allow him to feel less pressure in freshman year or at least not require too much remedial work. I think the AMC idea is fantastic too. It will certainly give us the peace of mind we are looking for, if he ends up at a top school. So, thanks for the input. I very much appreciate it.</p>
<p>I think we also partly underestimated the difficulty of AP courses. (since neither parent had any experience with them). Although, we were also of the view that even if he was not completely understanding the material it would provide a good base to study the material when he gets to college.</p>
<p>Are there any summer booster/ remedial programs at MIT for students who are admitted, who may want to brush up on mathematics or take Chemistry (more than a year since he would have taken AP Chem) before beginning studies at MIT?</p>
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<p>Yes, they do. Historically, these are only for minorities, but that may have changed.</p>
<p>The change in schools is a good explanation for the jump in SAT scores. He went from a situation where he was not challenged and did not have high expectations to a more rigorous school. I live in a rural area where many schools don’t get even one NMF. That does not mean there are no capable students but that they have not had the opportunity the students at your son’s school have.</p>
<p>Your son is capable and has been placed in a school that has given him what he needs to succeed.</p>
<p>I know students from other areas who have been admitted to MIT. I trust that their admissions staff knows how to choose students who will succeed and also fit in there. If your son is admitted, then that is the time to decide if it is a good fit for him, and if he likes it. The students I know who attended MIT all visited and felt this sense that this is where they belonged and fit with the other students. If other students from your school are at MIT, your son can ask them how they feel the workload is in comparison and if they felt prepared. I’ve not been to MIT, but, IMHO, it seems acceptance and “fit” are better indicators than 7th grade SAT’s in your son’s situation.</p>
<p>I do see your point though, judging from the type of school your son is attending. I expect that many of the students there who do get into MIT have participated in advanced math programs like Duke TIP since 7th grade. They would have made the qualifications by then, coming from that district. In this case, it’s not just the scores but the additional experience and education with advanced math that your son did not have at that age. </p>
<p>The question would not be the scores, but is your son prepared compared to those kids. The admissions office must also consider students from various backgrounds and could address the student who is admitted but has had less opportunities. How do they do?</p>
<p>He’s been doing his work so far, no reason he won’t be able to continue to do so. I have recommended this article countless times. You’ll understand the mechanics of admission to highly selective schools. You have to trust the AdCom, after all they are only wrong 2% of the time and it really applies to any highly selective school:</p>
<p>[Inside</a> The Admissions Game - Newsweek and The Daily Beast](<a href=“http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/1999/04/04/inside-the-admissions-game.html]Inside”>http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/1999/04/04/inside-the-admissions-game.html)</p>
<p>Pennylane, I believe the rural schools issue is very comparable. It is very hard for these kids to know what the competition is like and how to prepare for top colleges without the resources and knowledge in a wealthy school districit. </p>
<p>J’adoube, thanks for the article and I hope you are right about trusting the adcoms at schools such as MIT where the graduation rates are so high.</p>
<p>Thanks to everyone else for sharing your opinions.</p>