<p>I am starting this with a warning. What I am talking about is a huge generalization and there are plenty of people who are exceptions to it. I understand that all evidence for or against this will be anecdotal unless there is some study that I don’t know of, but I want your anecdotes and theories anyways.</p>
<p>I have noticed that people generally become more dogmatic as they get older. For example, I have noticed that most people in there 30s are more open minded than people in their 50s. The only glaring exception to this trend that I can think of is middle school to early high school age (depending on the kid obviously, some keep it even longer). You guys are parents, you know how difficult middle schoolers are, or maybe I just think that because I was h ell on wheels in middle school.</p>
<p>Is there something to what I am saying, or am I a young whippersnapper putting down people older than me? I am confusing dogmatism with confidence? Is it something that is inherent in getting older or is it a generational thing? Do you think that it is actually the reverse of what I am saying? Is the real answer that you are more likely to perceive some one as a dogmatist the further away they are from you age wise, be it older or younger?</p>
<p>I ask this because it is something that I have noticed now that I am in college. Although people are more intelligent a discerning than they were in high school, I have also noticed that they have become more set in their ways. Don’t get me wrong people are still open minded, but I have noticed that when I compare seniors to juniors to sophomores to freshman to high school seniors, the further along students are, the more solid their opinions are. It is not that they are necessarily intolerant of other peoples opinions, it is just that they seem unpersuaded by them, and that they don’t contemplate them as seriously. I seldom see a debate that changes anyones mind. Maybe the answer is just that people in general are dogmatic. I don’t know, I can’t find any reason to pick one of these possible points of view over another.</p>
<p>Parents, some of you have life spans that are more than three times greater than mine. I need your perspective on this. My 18 years is simply not enough to notice these trends if they are there. I need help, this has been bothering me way too much.</p>
<p>edit: maybe dogmatism is not the right word, its connotation has an awful lot of baggage. But it generally describes what I am trying to get at.</p>
<p>What exactly do you mean by “dogmatic”? Do you mean that people are opinionated or they’re preacy and try to persuade or bully you with their opinions? Or that they are rigid and convinced that they are right? </p>
<p>Older people sometimes become less tolerant of young people as they themselves move on to other life stages. This is probably true for people of all ages— high schoolers disdain middle schoolers, college students can’t believe how silly high schoolers are, and speaking for myself as an “empty nester”, I have no tolerance for people with toddlers. </p>
<p>But are you talking about just being set in your ways? That’s a temperament that holds true for a lifetime. At least that’s my observation. </p>
<p>What’s the behavior that is bothering you so much?</p>
<p>That’s an interesting question. I’m not sure, although I guess I have observed this in some individuals and the opposite in others. I noticed on Christmas that several of my family members have become downright militant on some political subjects. Very intolerant of other views. These individuals have always been rather black and white in their thinking so i imagine that they get stuck on a track that aligns with certain dogma and that track becomes more and more narrow over time. For them to consider other points of view as valid is a threat to their own intellect and reasoning and that frightens them.</p>
<p>On the other hand I have found that some individuals that are a generation or so younger than me are rigid in a different way. I guess a form of idealism that is based in theory with little experience to back it up and lend the “exception to the rule” factor that tends to temper strongly held beliefs. The gray area comes with experience. In any case, I guess i haven’t answered your question. I would like to think that i have become more open minded as I’ve gotten older. I’m not sure the people around me would agree, though!</p>
<p>It is not a behavior that has been bothering me, it is the question. By dogmatic I mean that they are more rigged and convinced they are right. I know this is a general human characteristic, but is it more prevalent as people get older?</p>
<p>Firehouse, one of the things I have begun to notice is the my very eldery relatives (in the 80’s to 90’s) are way more open minded and tolerant then some of my younger realtives (30’s and 40’s). I think perhaps it has to do with where you are in life and what you stand to gain and lose. At 35 you have kids and are looking to protect a lifestyle that will guarantee the survival of the family. At 85 you have come to understand that the things that reallly matter are only the things in your own control, so why sweat the stuff other people do. Only a quick thought.</p>
<p>As people get older they’re more experienced. Many of them have already pondered most of the questions and reached their conclusions. They know more where they stand on politics, philosophy, social issues, etc. than they did when they were younger and not thinking about or just considering the questions. This doesn’t mean they’re dogmatic - just that they know what their thoughts and philosophies are since they’ve been formed. What might be perceived as closed mindedness to an argument might just be that the person has already considered it and reached their conclusions so they’re not really closed minded at all. A lot of people who were still pondering the questions at 18 have them figured out (for themselves) by the time they’re in their later 20s/30s/40s.</p>
<p>By your standards I am old and I would say that it might be more prevalent as people get older but…a few things to consider:
particularly on political subjects people have become very vocal and rigid in their viewpoints because those of us who are in the working world and directly affected by the economy are seeing a lot of problems and we have had enough.
As you get older, your viewpoint may not have gotten stronger but your willingness to vocalize it may have. I find that the older I get the less I care what others think of me and the more comfortable I am in my own skin.
Agreed/cross posted with ucsd dad…</p>
<p>I was a lot more dogmatic in my 20s and 30s. I thought I knew it all, I had everything figured out. I looked at everything as black and white. Now close to 50 (very close), I feel I am more tolerant to other ideas and probably more forgiving. I feel there is not just one way of approaching a problem, just because someone looks at it differently it doesn’t mean he is wrong. As a matter of fact, people who knew me when I was younger said I have gone “soft.”</p>
<p>Oh, I’ve done some many different things, and put a lot of thought into the right way to do things. It takes a LOT of persuading to get me to change my methods. I have methods for many things. I recently sent my kids a long epistle on the correct way to clean a bathroom in ten minutes, for example. (My grandfather was an efficiency expert and I lean that way myself. I am way too lazy to spend more time than necessary doing anything.)</p>
<p>As for opinions, I am mostly data-driven. I want data and sources. I’m not open to touchy-feely arguments. However, a good data-driven argument from the other side will often change my mind.</p>
<p>For example, right now I’m discussing compost with my daughter. She wants me to have my own compost pile; I want to send my yard waste to Portland and let them compost it. She brings up issues of fuel use and truck use; I bring up efficiency. We’re both looking for persuasive data.</p>
<p>This topic has been addressed by several country songs, most recently by Montgomery Gentry in “Back When I Knew it all” His view is actually contrary to yours. He believes that it is the younger person who thinks he knows everything but with age grows wiser. As my friend told me 40 years ago, (long before that whatshisname secretary of defense butchered this simple saying) If you don’t know you don’t know, you think you know. And the corollary, If you don’t know you know, you think you don’t know.</p>
<p>I have often marveled at a related phenomenon. I think this is related, and not a thread hijack. Every high school student that I have ever met who was accepted to Harvard has been without exception a wonderful, smart, level headed outstanding person. And yet the vast majority of older Harvard graduates that I have met are stuffy, conceited, arrogant and full of themselves. Is this a natural transformation that comes with the aging/ maturing process or is this something that Harvard does to its students?</p>
<p>(The unofficial solution to this paradox is that I have in fact met some very nice, intelligent, modest, self effacing individuals who went to Harvard but I don’t know where they went to school.)</p>
<p>“dogmatic - characterized by or given to the expression of opinions very strongly or positively as if they were facts”</p>
<p>firehose: Books could be written on this topic, and the interpretation that works for one person may not for another. For example, ‘The Amish live the best of all possible lives.’ Some Amish do I’m sure, but that doesn’t make the statement universally true.</p>
<p>My brother and I make a good team directing our family affairs. I like to keep my options open as long as possible … my brother likes to start closing off less promising options as early as possible. I’m dogmatic insisting that my way is better … my brother is equally dogmatic that his way is better. The important thing is to realize that people get to their opinions by means specific to each individual. But as long as they’re working toward the same goal …</p>
<p>NJers, I have seen an almost identical thing! That is part of the reason why I posted this thread. I am a Stanford student and nearly everyone that I met there has been very kind and considerate, but during the class reunions, many alumni were obnoxious beyond belief. They had a Ron Burgundy kind of attitude (this may be the wrong place to use and Anchorman reference). Although, the people who were there for their 50th class reunion were all very nice. I was talking to a classmate and we were trying to figure out when we turn into pompous jerk, and then when did we realize that we are jerks and fix it.</p>
<p>The reason I did not bring it up at first was that I didn’t want this thread to be all about HYPS, but now that I have some good responses to the question in general, I would like some see what people have to say about this. Do you know when I am going to turn into a jerk?</p>
<p>It has been observed throughout history that the great majority of people harden in their opinions and ways as they grow older. </p>
<p>I suspect a few natural processes are at work. For example and in general, people grow from being selfish as youngsters to feeling more expansive about themselves and their connections to the world and then they start to narrow again. This has been called the growth and loss of idealism but I see it more as a natural process. </p>
<p>Another natural process is that opinions and beliefs harden. Of course some people are more fervent in whatever belief when they’re young but, speaking generally, older people become more fixed in their general beliefs. This again is a natural process because as you age you build up a body of opinion and knowledge - whether actually factual and correct or not - and the more substantial your structure the less able you are to be malleable about it.</p>
<p>Another issue is that most people are addicted to blaming others and to irrational beliefs their entire lives but these in youth seem less fixed. Youth blames others for the world’s problems and so you see older people blaming the poor, minorities, the government, the banks, whatever becomes the focus of their attention. This isn’t a change in behavior, more a marker of how deeply flawed human beings are.</p>
<p>As an example of human flaws that have not improved, consider that the stories of Jacob and then of Joseph introduced the concept of confession and repentance and state clearly that God is only capable of judging. Jesus repeats this message several times. And yet every day we see examples of how the very basic lessons which religion seems to exist to teach are completely unlearned. We’re told that lying is wrong and yet lying and distortion is the order of the day. We continue to see the speck in others’ eyes while ignoring the plank stuck in our own.</p>
<p>There is a physiological basis for some of the lack of tolerance shown by middle-aged people. For one, it is a stressful time in life: being a few years before retirement has major economic connotations, it’s a time when many are caught supporting both older and younger family members, and everyone’s body is slowing down and sending mixed signals. For some, this allows less time and focal energy for what they consider unimportant issues. For both men and women, it can be a time of roller coaster moods or depression partly due to to hormonal issues. So the openness and tolerance that you see in a college-aged person just isn’t there anymore. We were all love children in the '60s and '70s :-), but that is just not possible anymore.</p>
<p>“Do you know when I am going to turn into a jerk?”</p>
<p>Yes, after you’ve been working very hard for fifteen years, and before it’s clear you’re going to be successful. (There are also many jerks who don’t work hard, or who aren’t going to be successful … but I don’t believe either situation will apply to you.)</p>
<p>The thing is, those conceited and bombastic 45-year-olds got that way through their experiences as 25 to 40 year olds … it’s really hard to assimilate experiences without being affected by them. (It’s a bit like that old wheeze … do medical schools screen for arrogance or do they instill it?) Even if you could ignore the effects of your experiences, there will still be that disadvantaged fraction of the population that THINKS you’re a jerk, even if you’re making the best possible decisions. </p>
<p>Bottom Line: You’re already WAY ahead of the curve for observing that people change as they move through life.</p>