Question on the role of women in Muslim society

Parent Cafe
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<p>There is plenty of room for change. I still disagree with Abhi, it is my belief that no religion or faith is inherently evil; it’s fanatic interpretations and extremism that give any faith a bad name. (Abhi, I frankly can’t reconcile your views on human rights with your own intolerance/prejudice against Islam)</p>

<p>I know, as I said earlier, many Muslims who see no conflict between their faith and their views in favour of women’s rights and for that matter, human rights. These most definitely aren’t views held broadly by all Muslims, although more rigid interpretations of Islam seem to be prevalent in many Arab countries today.</p>

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<p>“There is plenty of room for change”</p>

<p>Not in the direction you or I may wish.</p>

<p>K_twin, you also mentioned “… more rigid interpretations…”, may I ask, of what? What is it that needs to be interpretd?</p>

<p>Abhi0854, I still demand to know what would you suggest to solve/end the “problem”</p>

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<p>Invade them and fed-ex all the autocrats to Guantanamo.</p>

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<p>These views aren’t held by Muslims constituting one-hundredth of 1 percent of Muslim population in these countries.</p>

<p>Intellectually Muslim world is a tyranny; because it’s a tyranny people can’t grow upto the level of the world they envy[Western civilization]. </p>

<p>Culture of belief always reaches tyranny. Religion has always been tyranny when it become an expression of state power[Take Roman Church during Renaissances for example]. Nor does the Muslim world[and third world in general] has thinkers who could point to them where their thoughts and passions are taking them. Turkey has demonstrated that even a country with Muslim-majority can progress. The only way IMO is Secularism of Arab society as demonstrated by turkey.</p>

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<p>Don’t play dense. I don’t think you can find an instance of “mutilation by circumcision” for the purpose of denying sexual pleasure to the male “mutilated.” To equate the same with a clitorectomy or worse shows a complete (and may I say intentional?) misunderstanding of the motivation.</p>

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<p>Not to mention the recent studies which show that circumcision may help reduce the transmission of HIV: <a href=“HeadlineAlley”>HeadlineAlley;

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<p>tsk,tsk, cur - I think you are missing something. You will have to quote me if you think I said circumcision was done to males to deny sexual pleasure. The only point I was making was that the practice (for whatever reason) is a form of mutilation.</p>

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<p>Booklady - claptrap!</p>

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<p>I have no evidence that is true, leanid but if you say the foreskin is also a claptrap, that would be another reason for the practice. ;)</p>

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<p>Tsk, Tsk? </p>

<p>I said look to the purpose of the act. You refused to do so. I called you on it. </p>

<p>Again, if anybody is confused, - Female genital mutilation is to eliminate sexual pleasure of women. That is it’s purpose. The same is not true of male circumcision. Look to the purpose of the act. </p>

<p>Do I need to get you a subscription to Penthouse Forum or do you think you have it now? ;)</p>

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<p>So is genital piercing and (<<<<shudder>>>>>) tatooing. Neither are relevant either.</shudder></p>

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<p>I can’t believe that someone could be so ignorant to equate genital mutilation with circumcision.</p>

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<p>Leanid, Curmudgeon has soundly discredited you. You wrote a bombastic post #20 “Speaking of genital mutilation, what do you call circumcision?” </p>

<p>Leanid, you tried to divert attention, as people documented serious abuses against third-world women (exemplified by female circumcision) by blithely tossing in male circumcision (practiced in the Western world by many). </p>

<p>Many posts later, after you took some swipes at Booklady who introduced a possible medical rationale, you still ignored Curmudgeon. </p>

<p>Cur wrote: “I said look to the purpose of the act. You refused to do so. I called you on it.”</p>

<p>As usual, Cur’s attentiveness raises the bar. We should try to engage in defensible points, understanding that Parents Cafe has many astute readers who will notice dropped debate points.</p>

<p>I was struck by how quickly a logical thread about Muslim societies rapidly careened out-of-control into scattershot points. Why is that?</p>

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<p>OMG, I just now got the joke about “claptrap.”</p>

<p>Shows the impact of no coffee on my feeble brain.</p>

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<p>OMG, I just now got the joke about “claptrap.”</p>

<p>:) Thanks for noticing. (I’ve been chuckling by myself. Never a good thing. This feels much better. Anyway, who could expect me not to hit that? leanid pitched that tater right over the plate. )</p>

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<p>Cur - Very amusing. Perhaps I should have used another term so as not to arouse misinterpretation in those with, clearly, one-track minds. ;)</p>

<p>All right, then, Booklady, in answer to your concern about HIV, I say ‘balderdash’!</p>

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<p>From what I’ve read, female circumcision is not specifically a Muslim practice. There are societies in Africa that practiced and practice it that are non-Muslim (and seem to have practiced it prior to the introduction of Islam), and Muslim societies where it is not practiced.</p>

<p>As for circumcision preventing HIV, well, cutting off the rest of the operational capacity might do the same, as might branding those who are HIV+ on the forehead. Cutting off the tip of the nose, in a messy way, might also have the same effect.</p>

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<p>Seriously, I understood that widespread acceptance of male circumcision began when the U.S. Army encouraged (didn’t require) farmboys in World War I to have it done while serving overseas, for hygienic ease and to protect against STD’s (rightly or wrongly).
Upon return to their home communities, it was associated with better medicine, as encountered under Army protection, and filtered into rural communities that way.
Jewish and Muslim men cling to it for religious, non-medical reasons anyway. So all the pro-and-con medical arguments during the late 20th century, calling male circumcision “barbaric” and so forth, sound irrelevant in those homes. We know it’s “medically unnecessary” but we do many things that are medically unnecessary. I can understand why medical insurance shouldn’t go to pay for it.</p>

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<p>There’s no such entity as “Muslim society” that we can make accurate statements about. It’s always been very different in Afghanistan than in Indonesia. Even within one Muslim nation, like Turkey, the role of women is wildly different in the cities vs. the countryside.</p>

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<p>few points relevant to the subject (please go back and read the beginning of my post on page 1) :</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Statistics on these topics are scarce. Most of us speak of a personal experience.</p></li>
<li><p>Any sensible person with little background recognizes that there IS a conflict between the western modern ideology(ies) and Islam. This conflict can not be simply skimped or ignored. And unless Islam seizes to be genuine or modern ideology compromises a great deal, or one side vanishes; this, at least ideological, conflict will continue.</p></li>
<li><p>Most people don’t care much about things out of their personal or family tangible lives. They care enough to chat about it and whatnot, but not enough to ACT. Same in the Muslim world.</p></li>
<li><p>There is a great struggle in the Muslim world: Please refer to the thread “An Idea Whose Time Has Come?” </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Islamic Awakening is what it’s called by its advocates. It’s here to fill the vacuum left after failure of different forms of Nationalism and Socialism.</p>

<p>What they’re trying to do is bring back to the “Muslim Ummah (Arabic for nation)” its lost glory and honor which it enjoyed 10-13 centuries ago. Some joined due to Nationalistic Arabist upbringing; many out of religious obligation/belief.
Yep! they want to take us back to the dark ages (certainly not theirs, but Europe’s, which they view is ours). The leaders of this segment of Muslims believe that this can only be done by spreading “purist Islamic Knowledge” and making it more accessible to the simple unsophisticated Muslim general public; therefore combating the influence of western-international media.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>The segment of “Wahabis” that frequently resorts to unjustified violence (represented by Al-Qa’edah and the like) is composed of emotional Muslims who quickly lose ground when debating with other “Wahabis” who are well grounded in Islamic studies. There are also many who are fed with their societies or dictatorship in their countries and find this form of violence satisfying. We have many like these in the US but they are swifter and more direct in showing their discontent.</p></li>
<li><p>K_twin, many times things are named incorrectly. e.g. Science certainly doesn’t teach nor it is equipped to handle the subject of god, yet many religious parties use the word to legitimize their objective in scientific circles. Same with Islam, there are certain rules to follow and specific pillars to raise, if those are not accomplished then it’s not Islam. Call it Arabian Modernism or Indian Intellectualism or whatever but not Islam–ask those Muslim friends of yours: what is the foundation of Islamic doctrine and teachings? Quran and "Sunnah (saynigs and practices of their prophet) </p></li>
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<p>Quran and Sunnah are “devine” texts to Muslims.</p>

<p>I said this in the 1st page and will repeat it: to have a SCHOLARLY understanding of Islam, one must have a SCHOLARLY mastery of the arabic language. One can’t simply design his/her own rules and principles then smear them on Islam. That’s why the Arabian Gulf, especially Saudi Arabia, appears to be rigid in their “interpretation”, it’s because it’s done ‘right’ and according to the rules (rules of Islam not modernism).</p>

<p>Can you translate Shakespeare’s (a ‘man-authored’ text) to, not Latin or Italian, but, say, Farsi, and still be able to get the same exact understanding? No!</p>

<p>‘Sleeping’ can be a verb and an adjective in different contexts, if you didn’t know this, would you have been able to interpret the text containing the word Sleeping? No you wouldn’t!</p>

<p>Any, Every, and Each are always used incorrectly interchangbly by ESL students, can those ESL students define what Shakespeare really wanted to say in a paragraph? no they can’t and their “interpretation” of any English literature shouldn’t be deemed correct just because they can rehearse the alphabet.</p>

<p>Does it make a difference if you command: “drink water and milk” or if you said “drink water then milk”? of course it makes a huge difference? would you have recognized the difference if you didn’t know English? no you wouldn’t.</p>

<p>I certainly am not defending the “horrible” “ugly” “rigid” textual understanding, but it seems the only <em>correct</em> way when handling a DIVINE text. Either prove to them it’s not divine or drown them in porn and occupy them with different kinds of “fun” to remove every bit of Islam from them except the mere name of it.</p>

<p>Abhi0854, Fredrick Smith would love you for what you said. I think every sincere, geniune and honest redneck would want to carry on your suggestion. But guess what, those little ragheads are mighty fighters, and our well-trained, well-equipped boys love their Pepsi-life as much as those camel-jokies love to “please their creator”.</p>

<ol>
<li>On female circumcision: <a href=“الإسلام سؤال وجواب”>الإسلام سؤال وجواب;
</ol>

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<p>you have no sense of humor

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