<p>US News has a very interesting article discussing questions that have arisen about the value of AP classes, and suggesting that at many schools the classes are not really college level classes. Very interesting, and I’d love to hear everyone’s thoughts:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/articles/050919/19advanced.htm[/url]”>http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/articles/050919/19advanced.htm</a></p>
<p>Great article! Thanks once again Carolyn. I have basically resigned myself to the opinion that D’s AP classes are 1) to bump her GPA and 2) to appear attractive to adcoms by “taking the toughest available courseload” .<br>
She took APCalc and APUSH last year and has a ridiculous AP load this year with 5 classes plus Spanish at the local JC. From what I saw from her APUSH class last year, it was LOTS of reading (of course American Pageant, which is filled with eurocentric myths, legends and outright lies) and practice DBQs and scantrons. Almost no class discussion or intellectual inquiry. Then we paid $82 to show that she had read and retained the “information”. I read somewhere that college history professors spend a lot of time unteaching what the entering freshmen have so diligently crammed into their heads. Anyway, to make a long rant shorter… I have already drafted my letter to the school board, superintendent, and principal stating that unless they subsidize the cost of the tests, my daughter will not be taking the May tests for her 5 AP classes. Think about it. It’s not a good financial investment from my point of view. By then she will already have been accepted into several fine academic institutions. I don’t buy into the idea that adcoms will question her As if she doesn’t take the tests. I would not want her to pass on a college level US History class anyway because she will most likely learn about it in a whole new way.
I’m wondering if other public schools (in CA especially) pay for the tests?
D’s teachers are already working on her to take the tests (because she is probably high scoring) so they can measure their effectiveness. I’m sure they just want to ensure that the top students take the tests so the program is “successful”. Sounds like a reasonable investment for the school district. Not for me though. Am I wrong?</p>
<p>Our school district requires the students to take the test if they take the class and the student pays.</p>
<p>I celebrate some critical attention to this issue (I don’t think Newsweek itself is a reliable “critic” really–but their publicity for some real research and facts on the ground is useful.) APs became a hot button issue in our district and some parents exerted frenzied pressure to increase the number of courses and students’ access–for all the reasons cited in the article. While there can be fabulous AP classes and teachers–the press for AP can crowd out far more wonderful, creative and flexible offerings that much better serve some of the brightest student. I think the AP designation is over-rated and have been glad to find that admissions staff (both in LACs and in the UCs) are being more discerning so that just accumulating APs isn’t seen as outweighing good grades in other classes or having a more varied scheduled.</p>
<p>I have to agree. I mean, in AP Government the only major difference between my class and the regular class is a short summer assignment. I mean, at my school only the math/science AP’s are actually up to a college level. Personally, I think we should do away with the AP level, since less and less is being accepted by colleges anyways. But I can’t NOT take these classes because it means very significant drops in rank, and a loss of level in courseload difficulty even if it’s not technically anymore difficult. I think standards, real standards, need to be established, and if the class isn’t up to the standards, then it shouldn’t be allowed to have that official AP standing.</p>
<p>Exactly Celebrian. You can’t NOT take AP classes just like you can’t NOT take the SATs. And so we are all sucked into the game. Follow the money.
Maybe public schools should fund college courses instead of funding the AP programs???</p>
<p>Our school district last year paid for all the AP tests. The year before that we paid for up to two tests and they paid the difference. The only way students get the .5 credit is to take the test. There is also no barriers as to who can register for AP courses, they just have to “make the grade” so to speak. Now, I know it depends on the college where students go to how much AP credit they accept, but for our S it worked out well. He walked in with 21 credits, and out of many of the intro classes.</p>
<p>In son’s HS sometimes the honors is easier than the regular class, and the honors class is tougher than the AP. This should not be, but it is that way depending upon who is teaching. I do not think these classes are necessarily college classes. Carolyn, thanks for the article.</p>
<p>At our kids’ HS, the great thing about the AP classes is the instructors are generally the best the school has to offer & share their passion for the subject with the students. My son did the best in his AP courses & enjoyed them immensely. He’s taking 5 this year & seems to enjoy them as well. They can vary tremendously by teacher & school, true enough.
The GC says after he decides what school he will attend, he needs to sit down with GC & the college & figure out whether to repeat the courses or take the more advanced ones (there are pros & cons of each strategy).
HImom</p>
<p>AP classes vary tremendously by school and by teacher. But then the same can be said of college courses. And AP courses are not meant to reproduce those great specialized college courses taught by teachers with a PhD in and a passion for the subject. They are meant to correspond to those big, required freshman survey courses that generally fall to the faculty member at the bottom of the college pecking order.</p>
<p>This is why the IB program is a stronger program. IB teachers have to be trained specifically for the class that they will be teaching. There are international standards, other than the tests, that the students must measure up to. In AP classes, the teachers can assign as much or as little as they want during the year, but the IB classes have assignments that are sent around the globe and externally moderated. In English, IB classes have to read X many books, and write X many papers for IB, and do X many presentations for IB. Of course, the individual teachers can still vary, by assigning a lot of essays that don’t toward the IB score of a few, but there is more standardization.</p>
<p>Also, after 4 years, 2 of preIB and 2 of IB, the people who don’t belong in the advanced classes will no longer be there because they won’t be able to handle it. IB classes at my school were always the harder classes.</p>
<p>… and IMO, unless money is an issue and you will graduate early, coming into college with a ridiculous amount of credits is over rated. Most people I know who came in with enough credits to graduate early (by a semester or a year) are still taking 4 years.</p>
<p>Actually, several of my children’s HS teachers DO have PhDs, including their favorite freshman biology teacher. Son’s physics instructor has a PhD & is one of the favorite faculty members on campus, bar none. He is a tough grader, but is always available for thie kids & makes many kids love physics (or at least understand it pretty well). They cover the entire text book in AP Physics that USC uses for its college physics class & do over 60 experiments.</p>
<p>There are several PhDs also teaching in the english department, including his AP English teacher. There are other PhDs on the faculty & yes, the kids realize they are very lucky!
HImom</p>
<p>My son’s public high school subsidized the test - students paid $40/test. My daughter’s high school, also public, does not. Different districts. Demographically, my daughter’s district has more money and so do the students. </p>
<p>I don’t feel its a waste of money for a graduating senior - on the contrary, if the AP credits will be accepted at the intended college, than an $82 test may be be a $7500 value. (I’m figuring that the credit= 1 semester course at a college where students take 4 courses a semester, @ $30K tuition). Obviously, not such a good value if the student knows she will be enrolling at a college that will not give credit.</p>
<p>I think that the value of the courses for placement and credit can be a godsend - it gives students at public universities a very valuable buffer to help guarantee graduation in 4 years by giving them an extra semester or year’s worth of credit at the outset. It is also nice for students to be able to use the AP to place out of mandatory freshman English courses at the type of colleges where the level of those basic courses are not so challenging. </p>
<p>That being said - I think the idea of students taking a courseload top heavy with APs is ridiculous, and that they are misused. I’m not a fan of weighted grading because of the way the system can be manipulated. I agree that AP courses often lack depth. AP English is great because, at least in public high school, it tends to replace classes that are barely above the level of remedial English – I mean, the biggest shock to me when my kids entered high school was how much less reading and writing was required of them than in grades 6-8 (plus the rather frustrating degree of overlap between high school reading and what they had already read). AP history, on the other hand, is really too much facts crammed into too little time – the concept would be great if the courses were broken up: for example, a collegiate level course in modern (20th century) US history – or an alternative course covering early US history. But you can’t do 1492-2000 with much depth, especially if the idea is to prepare for a test covering the entire period. </p>
<p>My kids’ high schools and scheduling limitations really didn’t offer that much in the way of AP choices - and I’m glad that is the case. AP Psych last year was great for my daughter - she has always been fascinated by psychology and loved the opportunity to have an in-depth course - her interest level was so high that she easily aced he exam. But I would not want her to be taking an AP course in an area outside her interest simply in order to impress a college. </p>
<p>It would have been nice if my math & science focused son could have taken AP courses in those areas, but his high school didn’t offer them. On the other hand, when he got to college his biology and chem profs commented on how impressed they were with his lab background and abilities – I have a sense that maybe he was better off in the long run with course that were based more on lab work and less on text reading. </p>
<p>When I was in high school we had the tests but not the courses. I took the AP bio exam because I had taken “advanced” or 2nd year bio at my high school – but there was no standardized bio curriculum. I took the AP English exam simply because I read voraciously and wrote well, so I figured (correctly) that the exam would be easy despite shortcomings in my classroom experience. </p>
<p>So my “vote” would be for high schools to keep offering the exams, but ditch the courses in favor of simply developing stronger and more specialized curriculums. By more specialized, I mean that students would have more advanced courses to choose from in areas of interest, but would not be under pressure to choose the most advanced courses outside those areas.</p>
<p>I’m glad that our kids have had the opportunity (at the private school) to take AP courses. We have encouraged son to take AP courses that he is interested in because they tend to have the most passionate teachers & kids that really are interested in the subject. They encouarged the kids to take AP English comp test junior year (though they’re not taking AP Egnlish until senior year). My son got a 5. He’ll take the AP lit test this spring.</p>
<p>Son had the option of taking AP Psychology or AP Physics C (there was a scheduling conflict). He chose science, because he is interested & really enjoys the instructor & it’s a continuation of what he covered last year. </p>
<p>He stands to enter college with credit for at least 10 AP courses, plus a statistics course he took at a local college one summer. If the college accepts his scores (5s & one 4 in the 4 exams so far), he will be a sophomore or higher in credits before his 1st day of class. <grin> The counselor says it allows the kids to graduate in 4 years, even if they experiment with other fields & double-major or some get a masters & bachelors at the same time.</grin></p>
<p>I agree that it will give them more options when they start college and a very firm base. Strong curriculums can only help our kids. Some schools mandate that students can only take a maximum of 2 AP courses/year. Our school has that as a “general guideline,” but the counselor is allowed to override it in cases where the student is interested & shows the apparent ability to handle a heavier load.</p>
<p>“He’s taking 5 this year & seems to enjoy them as well. They can vary tremendously by teacher & school, true enough.”</p>
<p>And all I can think of is our school doesn’t offer five AP classes. My son is taking two of the four that are offered (AP-Calc and AP-Lit). And he’s a Junior. All that is left is AP-Bio and AP-Chem, which he may or may not take.</p>
<p>Peg</p>
<p>Our local suburban high school does not subsidize AP tests. There are some fund-raisers held during the year to raise money for families that can’t afford to pay for them.</p>
<p>As for AP vs. IB, at our high school, we have AP/IB classes–same class, same teachers for overlapping subjects like English, history, sciences, math.</p>
<p>Once AP demands a prescribed curriculum, texts etc. as mentioned in the article below the blending of AP and IB will not be possible. They are different programs. Schools can’t be everything for everyone and will have to choose which program they want to follow.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05223/552396.stm[/url]”>http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05223/552396.stm</a></p>
<p>My D’s school also offers joint IB/AP classes. I’m not sure how the AP certification is going to change that. My guess is that the curriculua should overlap enough without causing any problems.</p>
<p>Our public high school doesn’t subsidize AP exams, but nor do they require them. (Heck, they charge the kids for transcripts and make them suppy the postage and envelopes!). I doubt the value of taking AP exams in senior year, especially if the student either has to take a college-supplied placement exam or does not intend to exempt the freshman level classes. They were useful, though, to gain distribution credits outside of the intended major.</p>
<p>Well, the current frenzy to add AP’s was entirely off our radar for S1. We thought AP was a way to try out the college level courseload. We assumed he would take the test, though we had to pay the freight (he did and did well). He took one AP his senior year. It was much advanced compared to the college prep and honors’ classes, and he shined. </p>
<p>No he’s not at HYSPC. But he’s at a great Uni and will do well in life. No he won’t be the top dog of…what is it we are all trying to be tops at? </p>
<p>Yes he’ll be a great dad, friend, son, brother, musician and will make a nice living and laugh some, cry some, love some…and if someone tells him he has to do something because, well, it’s what you have to do, he’ll think critically about what is really important.</p>
<p>And he had a great senior year, with one AP and a few honors’ classes. </p>
<p>Why are we pushing our kids to run faster faster faster towards…towards…</p>