Questions to ask a Union

Parent Cafe
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<p>Unions like people are neither all good or all bad</p>

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<p>I think this is some of the best advice you’ve been given in this thread.</p>

<p>In particular I’d want to talk to workers at other companies who are part of the union you guys are considering.</p>

<p>Ex-H has been in 3 locals of the same national union over the years and while I give all the credit for decent wages and healthcare to those unions, some have been more efficient and flexible than others. One really seems to come up with some nonsense rules but in that one also, talent is everything and seniority is nothing. In another seniority is key for many of their jobs, but becoming an officer of the union was not hard, two friends of ours served terms as business agent and president.</p>

<p>So whether you will benefit from membership and how really does depend on the specific union, indeed the specific local, that you are thinking of joining. And the best way to predict that is to talk to employees of that union, IMO.</p>

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<p>Oh…and wonderful post musicprnt. </p>

<p>“Draw one line on a graph charting the decline in union membership, then superimpose a second line charting the decline in middle-class income share…and you will find that the two lines are nearly identical.”</p>

<p>[Turning</a> Our Backs on Unions - NYTimes.com](<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/05/opinion/nocera-turning-our-backs-on-unions.html]Turning”>Opinion | Turning Our Backs on Unions - The New York Times)</p>

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<p>You could also draw a third line - deaths in factories in Bangladesh owned by capitalists making wares for U.S. firms.</p>

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<p>There is a very real difference between public sector unions and private sector unions. Even FDR, no “Tea Party type” opposed public sector unions and his writings on the subject are very interesting and enlightening.</p>

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<p>You could also draw fourth and fifth lines showing the relationship between government regulation and taxation with income decline.</p>

<p>My issue with unions, aside from the thuggery, is the fact that so often employees don’t have a choice but to join. It’s also interesting that people worry about money in politics but seem to ignore just how much unions give. More interesting to note how many union members vote against the candidates their unions support. If you want to join a union, God bless you. But if you don’t want to join a union, you should still be able to work in both theory and practice.</p>

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<p>Of course, the fact that public sector unions exist implies that public sector management was bad enough to induce the employees to form unions. And public sector management up the chain is accountable to elected officials, who are in turn accountable to voters.</p>

<p>Not a fan of how many unions act, and how obstinate they can be when obstinacy does no one (including themselves) any good, but bad management may get the union it deserves.</p>

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<p>I’d be interested to see those 4th and 5th lines. Pretty sure taxes are lower now than they’ve been in several decades. Not sure which “regulation” would be counted but I’d love to see such a graph anyway.</p>

<p><a href=“http://duanegraham.files.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/2012/06/union-membership-and-middle-class-income.jpg[/url]”>http://duanegraham.files.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/2012/06/union-membership-and-middle-class-income.jpg&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>civil service and public sector unions are not ideal but they are far better than the alternative of a political spoils system for all public jobs.</p>

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That’s exactly the point. A staggering number of the voters are the union workers who then vote in politicians who represent their interests to the exclusion of other taxpayers. That’sthe conflict in a nutshell. The problems in my city and state show clearly how well that doesn’t work.</p>

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It depends on where you live, no? Remember, I’m talking about state/local taxation and regulation, rather than federal.</p>

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A politial spoil system is exactly what we have in union-run localities. I refer you back to the longshoremen, the Staten Island Ferry, etc. When the unions control the electorate which elects the politicians, the entire locality becomes a political spoils system.</p>

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<p>I don’t think I can remember something you didn’t write but I’d still love to see that graph. Or a breakdown year by year. Or something.</p>

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<p>Unions run voter drives just like many other organizations. Most voters vote in terms of what is in their best interest. No one is denying they are a powerful voting block but so is the chamber of Commerce as well as many other groups.</p>

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<p>My father was running a company while I was growing up and he always talked about the necessities of the unions and he was a true believer until the company was in trouble and the union would not negotiate to keep the company viable. The union would also not allow workers to be shifted from one job to another to keep the production lines efficient and producing what little was being sold. Flash forward the wages that were being earned in the auto industry were outrageous…simply not sustainable on any level and I watched that debacle for a second time. If the prevailing hourly wage in a non-union shop is $17 an hour you can’t sustain manufacturing in an identical shop in a union location at $30 an hour. Can’t be done in a global economy. </p>

<p>If you have a falling birthrate in a hospital you don’t need as many employees in the birthing unit and if the same hospital has an increasing cardiac unit…well…they need MORE people. You can’t have teachers unions paying no co-pays for prescriptions or no health care premiums when every other industry pays something for prescriptions or co-pays in insurance. You can’t have unions demanding more in an industry like printing that is dying. Flexibility is important and unions have gotten better I think in understanding that but I’m still not a fan. There are so many federal laws governing safety and welfare and workplace activities that much of what the unions stood for are simply no longer necessary. </p>

<p>Unions can’t “save” jobs. Unions can’t price their labor out of business. What question to ask a union person? What do you do with my dues and what do those dues guarantee. My guess is they guarantee very little.</p>

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<p>mom- you need to include hc benefits as a part of total compensation. So depending on the total cost you can have zero cost on hc. The compensation would have to suffer somewhere else.</p>

<p>That fact that hc is free does not in itself mean the compensation is unreasonable,</p>

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<p>I’m not confident that those laws will withstand challenge without unions to fight for them. Unions had to fight for them in the first place…what’s to stop industry from lobbying to walk back safety and other regulations they find cut into profit?</p>

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<p>The big deal that unions guarantee, is that workers will come together, talk about what they need, and negotiate some control of their work environment. For healthcare workers, shift workers, there are many issues regarding work/life balance that do far better when union negotiated, and they have little to do with money. Often they have to do with treating workers well, so patients are better cared for, ratings go up, and everyone wins. </p>

<p>My union contract is a rather thick book, for a reason, covering who gets off for holidays, how holidays shifts are assigned, sick leave and vacations are handled, who gets on call first, how vacation policies are shaped, when salaries increase. </p>

<p>mom, regarding health care compensation, here in Wisconsin, state and govt. workers were singled out for having no copays and low cost insurance. For decades, there had been minimal increases in pay, when the private sector was growing by leaps and bounds. As Tom says, it is part of total compensation, and not intrinsically evil, though needs consideration as economic factors shift. </p>

<p>A young man of my acquaintance, working in an assisted living, is showing me once again, how necessary unions can be for health care workers. No work life balance, no real benefits. 4 hour shifts, home 6 hours, work another 4, then come in early the next AM for an 8 hour shift. </p>

<p>My hospital is an amalgam of two historic hospitals in my city. The one I worked for was non union, and a smaller hospital. We were paid well, and working conditions were good, though some details improved when we joined the larger hospital and unionized. Both hospitals were community spirited institutions, and the non union status worked due to the business climate at that time. The business climate has changed, and there is far less benevolence in the business world these days. I am very glad for my union staying on top of the details of the work place environment. </p>

<p>That they supported my political candidates does bother some. They are looking for candidates that support the working class in this country, consistent with their mission. There appears to be no shortage of money available for the opposing party.</p>

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<p>There are so many federal laws governing safety and welfare and workplace activities that much of what the unions stood for are simply no longer necessary.d</p>

<p>Laws that cant begin to be enforced, help whom exactly?
[“I</a> Always Knew Somebody Would Get Killed Inside That Place” | Mother Jones](<a href=“http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/05/us-steel-nick-revetta-osha]"I”>“I Always Knew Somebody Would Get Killed Inside That Place” – Mother Jones)

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<p>[OSHA</a> News Release: MSHA releases preliminary fatality data for 2011 [01/05/2012]](<a href=“http://www.dol.gov/opa/media/press/osha/OSHA20120022.htm#.ULbmlWd-IkE]OSHA”>http://www.dol.gov/opa/media/press/osha/OSHA20120022.htm#.ULbmlWd-IkE)</p>

<p>Better than China but still not great. And coal companies seem to get away with ignoring safety rules pretty regularly. Not many inspectors and the laws are not severe even when enforced.</p>

<p>Maybe an example will be made in the case of Massey: [Probe</a> of Massey coal mine disaster widens; ex-president charged - latimes.com](<a href=“http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-massey-coal-mine-charges-20121128,0,358640.story]Probe”>Probe of Massey coal mine disaster widens; ex-president charged)</p>

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<p>Staggering? How is that when only a small percentage of workers are in unions these days?</p>

<p>If voters had elected competent management in the first place, then the government employees may never have bothered forming a union. Of course, now evidence of the bitterness that poisons the employer-employee relationship surfaces every time the contract is up.</p>