Questions to ask a Union

<p>My daughter is a teacher, too, so I am very sympathetic, but where is the money supposed to come from?</p>

<p>In our school district there is a lot of waste & little institutional memory, so expensive programs are instituted ( top down BTW) and discarded a few years later when new people come in. Little follow up or evaluation is ever done & even when outside audits show mismanagement, sanctions and penalties are not enforced by the state.
Then the new crew can pass a levy to fund their ideas and leave a couple years later.
Administrative positions seem available just to boost their resume, not to accomplish anything.</p>

<p>I have less of a problem with teachers having excellent pensions because they can’t retire in their middle 40s so it is much less expensive. Something along the lines of saying that a person can retire at 20 years with full pension accrual but not begin collecting until age 60 or having retirees contribute to their health insurance costs might make sense.</p>

<p>Are unions in other areas currently and historically as heavily infiltrated and influenced by the mafia as the unions here?</p>

<p>H was a union steward for years, & being a mentor to other workers really isnt his thing - although he now is busy training new hires :wink: </p>

<p>But I cant say I have ever heard about * any *organized crime at either the shipyards or at his current job, ever, although workers were so hard to get for some of the positions at the shipyard, that some were on work release( they lived at the city jail)</p>

<p>I do have an elderly gentleman friend, who grew up in Chicago during the 1940’s where his father happened to be an alderman. He tells lots of stories. ( he has even more about what it was like to be an African American in Mississippi) =:-</p>

<p>Emeraldkity, that may color our different perceptions. Many unions here are wholly-owned subsidiaries of the mafia. Many others are wannabes.</p>

<p>A few years ago, I got on the wrong side of a local transportation union. I wanted service provided that would have created union jobs. Which one would think the union would have liked. And they did, except they wanted the service held until after an election because they didn’t want the party in power getting credit. I wasn’t interested in playing that game. When I didn’t play along, they posted pictures of me on the Internet, including what bus I took and where I got on and off, my address, my work address, the ages and genders of my kids, and where they went to school, so that members and supporters could find me to help me understand my mistake. They waited for me in groups at the bus stop, near my house, and in public places.</p>

<p>Nothing gets better or richer than the union and its organizers.</p>

<p>When I didn’t play along, they posted pictures of me on the Internet, including what bus I took and where I got on and off, my address, my work address, the ages and genders of my kids, and where they went to school, so that members and supporters could find me to help me understand my mistake.</p>

<p>Wow!
:eek:</p>

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<p>I used to have a friend from Newark whose ex and father/brother and so forth had been in the longshoreman’s union. Her ex served time in federal prison for racketeering, along with the husbands of some of her friends. Her family was connected too, I believe. She was discreet about it: she said most people who really were didn’t go around talking about it. While we were working together, circa 1981, her S, a recent HS graduate, was able to get a union job that involved staying in a toll booth-like thing and checking off loads. He was making $40K per year at age 19. Connections. Unfortunately for many others, the Port of Newark employed a fraction of the people they once had. There is a reason why shipping became containerized. In addition to everything else, the longshoremen stole everyone blind. </p>

<p>It is obviously ridiculous for a sanitation worker to be able to retire at full pension with life-long health benefits for self and all dependents at 40. But I recall that back in the 70s, NYC sanitation workers were making huge salaries for that time. And the janitors in the NYC school system were making far more than the teachers. (And doing an overall lousy job, too, if reports I read back then were accurate.)</p>

<p>The whole scene is completely different, indeed.</p>

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These are both still true. More true, even.</p>

<p>You know what the worst group is in terms of being “connected?” The Staten Island Ferry.</p>

<p>I have to add another thing. Obviously unions on the east coast are something i dont know anything about. I do want to mention something about pay scales as reported in the paper however.
In manufacturing (& probably elsewhere) it is cheaper for administration to pay workers overtime, than to hire more workers who have to be trained and who also will receive benefits.
For long periods of time- my H only had one weekend off a month- this was working swingshift mostly.
Yes, he was paid, more but his family would have rather had him home.
& this was with a union.</p>

<p>When union salaries are quoted in the paper, it is for effect & so they bury the hourly wage and instead stress their annual pay making it sound like that is from a 40hr week.
Even now he has to work every other weekend. Hes 57 yrs old, its hard on him to work that much in a noisy and physical environment. </p>

<p>Unfortunately I blew out my knee which was related to my work( but not actually at work) / but I hadn’t worked enough to get disability, so we need him to stay healthy.</p>

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<p>Union or no union, the pie is shrinking (i.e. the business or organization is losing money and needs to cut back), so expect bad things to happen (possibly leading to going out of business). Time to look for a job at some place that is not going down.</p>

<p>Very good point, ucbalumnus.</p>

<p>If the company is cutting back, a union will just exacerbate a declining situation - the union’s rigid workrules will just make the company less competitive and lead to an acceleration of a downward spiral.</p>

<p>30+ years ago I watched my home town (one company town) become literrally a ghost town because of union greed. No specifics but the readers digest version is that the company was having an outstanding year and open the contract a year early and offered a very good increase in salary and benefits but the union in its wisdom (or lack thereof) felt that if the company was doing so well as to offer this early then they could obviously give more. The union execs forced a strike that lasted 9 months and refused to go to the table. Finally the company called the union into head office and literally put a padlock on the table told the union they had 7 days to recomend a vote in favor of the contract as offered 9 months earlier or the padlock would go on the door and never be removed. Well again the union thought it knew best and did not recomend a back to work. The company put the padlock up and six months later all of the heavy equipment was removed and the buildings torn down. Everyone lost their jobs, homes, schools and their complete lives got turned upside down because of the unions greed.</p>

<p>My H’s family owned a small company that manufactured parts for the auto industry. At one point H worked there, and so had to join the union. They were in contract negotiations. The union rep drove up in his Cadillac :slight_smile: and spoke to the workers. He told them that they had talked to the owner, who had said that he was making the best offer possible, and that if they did not accept it he would have to close the business, and that they believed him and thought the workers should accept the offer. They voted. H cast the swing vote that accepted the offer. The workers, not the union management, were the ones that were willing to shutter that business.</p>

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If you feel you can get a job with better benefits and better pay for odd shifts then why not just quit where you are and go to the better company? If in fact you can’t find a company with better benefits/pay, then maybe you don’t have a realistic view of the particular field or are over-valuing yourself to the company. Why take an antagonistic approach and look to a union when you can handle this yourself? Don’t forget that it’s all relative and supply and demand - if the company across the street is willing to hire most of you for better benefits/pay then everyone would leave your current company and that current company would be forced to offer better benefits/pay to be competitive. The only reason you’re offered benefits and whatever level of pay you’re getting now is just because that’s what the company feels it needs to do to be competitive and attract the talent anyway. </p>

<p>Sometimes coming to terms with this idea of supply/demand of talent and competitive benefits/pay can be enlightening and improve one’s outlook and emotions. At the end of the day you need to decide - ‘is it worth it to work here for the benefits/pay they’re giving me?’ and if it’s not, then simply go get a job where it’s better but if you discover you can’t find a job where it’s better then maybe where you’re at isn’t so bad after all.</p>

<p>As far as cutting benefits, especially medical benefits, welcome to the real world. There are, in fact, no free rides despite what politicians would like to promise us. You can’t force insurance companies to take on more obligations/liabilities without that cost being made up somewhere and most of us are seeing that in the premiums going up, up, up. Yours isn’t the only industry with reduced benefits in this area. In fact, it’d be hard to find an industry where this isn’t happening.</p>

<p>“As far as cutting benefits, especially medical benefits, welcome to the real world.”</p>

<p>I have only one word for this:</p>

<p>Bangladesh.</p>

<p>People keep promoting the idea that the d**n unions ruined everything, that if it weren’t for them all these jobs would be here, etc…one of the ironies is less then 1 in 10 workers in this country is unionized, and have been for years, and jobs still go overseas in droves. Unions are convenient scapegoats, but the reality is the same problem afflicted unions and management, it is known as greed and short sightedness. More importantly, most of the ills of a company are generally do to bad management, they control the capital spending, and in terms of quality and productivity capital (management) outweighs the effect of labor by at least 10-1 or more (my masters in management is in that area). Unions don’t decide to make the products companies do, unions don’t decide how to market products or make decisions like cutting back on quality to save 50c. </p>

<p>The tea party types were outraged when they talked about UAW wages at auto plants (that in some cases, were way inflated, they included a worker with a lot of OT, benefits, and so forth, that wasn’t typical for most workers), about how they were overpriced, but no one surprisingly talked about GM management making millions of dollars in salaries and bonuses when the company lost 4 billion dollars…</p>

<p>I am as well aware of the shenanigans of unions and the ills of them, I know about them first hand, the guy who taught one of my courses on total factor productivity had been a union economist, and he told great stories…</p>

<p>It is very easy to look at the stupidity and idiocy of union rules (they never heeded the warning of people like Walter Reuther, who knew better) but it also leaves out a lot of inconvenient truths about management, that while laying of 10,000 jobs and sending them to China, while collecting huge salary and bonuses. Executives today get most of their pay from stock grants (not even options) that vest in a year, and they have every reason to pump up the stock price that often hurts the long term competitiveness of the company to increase their own personal stake, it is brass-ackwards. Once upon a time CEO’s relied on salary and cash bonuses for their pay, and back then a typical CEO earned about 30 times the average worker, today it is pushing 400 times, mostly because of stock…rather then invest in new technologies to produce products efficiently, or when doing well hire new workers, they send 100 year old technology to China to be made by workers making 40c an hour, no benefits, or work their existing workers to the bone, because capital spending and hiring people is frowned upon by the almighty stock analysits (who generally are 27 year old kids who barely know how to wipe their tookus but have an MBA degree from some prestigious business school and wouldn’t know which end of a bolt was up). </p>

<p>It is not surprising the living standards of average workers has declined while that of the executives has gone through the roof, the pay ratio has gone from 30x to 400 times or more in the last 30 years, it goes along with the decline of unionized labor as a counterbalance to that kind of greed (and before anyone wants to talk about CEO’s benefitting from a free market, they aren’t, read people like Graef Crystal on the subject). </p>

<p>BTW, in most stories about how ‘unions’ ruined a company, when you look at the actual case studies, and I did, most of the problem was a management team that didn’t know what it was doing, failed to account for competition, and then bailed out (with huge payoffs to themselves0 because it was more lucrative to liquidate then save the company for themselves personally. </p>

<p>If you are seriously thinking about the union, ask them about how they have dealt with similar situations at other plants, ask them what they would do with the situation you faced, how would they get what you are looking for, how would they be anything but a figturehead…ask them to give you details about workers covered in other companies, about what their pay has done, what their benefits have done, in the past, to get an idea if they deliver. If they can’t or won’t answer that, it prob means they want to come in, collect their dues, and do nothing but make a lot of hot air…</p>

<p>Unfortunately, what others have told you is probably more the reality these days, unless times are booming economically in your area and there are alternate jobs, you probably are faced, union or no, with the realities of a bad economy, that employers, fairly or unfairly, have the upper hand. I think seeing what is out there is not a bad idea, but one of the realities is without unions, companies also have de facto collaborated to bring down wages for workers, because without unions there is no one to keep them honest, the informal network among executives means executive A at company A and executive B at company B have an informal network with others, and if A decides to cut wages and benefits, B doesn’t use that as an opportunity to hire good workers, they use it as an incentive to do the same thing (kind of like airlines when they raise ticket prices and put new charges on passengers). Same way if a consulting arm of Bain consulting comes in and tells the owner he can boost his stock profits 50% by sending manufacturing offshore, there is no one to stop them from doing this, an uncle sam generally gives them huge tax credits to do so…</p>

<p>History repeats itself.^^^^^
[100</a> Years After the Triangle Fire: Are Labor Rights Moving Backward? - DailyFinance](<a href=“Stock Portfolio & Tracker - Yahoo Finance”>Stock Portfolio & Tracker - Yahoo Finance)</p>

<p>You go, musicprnt. :)</p>

<p>My recommendation is get a copy of the contract and read it.</p>

<p>Music print, that is one great post!!! Thank you! </p>

<p>Health care union member here. The union I work for has done well for us, not obtrusive, helps us represent our needs. I am very glad to be a union member. I was even happier yesterday, as my employer laid off some non union workers, but being union, knew I could not be touched unless the process was very careful and deliberate.</p>

<p>zoozer mom, I can well see why you are anti union. Your stories are hair curling. The need for unions waxes and wanes depending on social conditions and economics, as do union abuses. </p>

<p>To OP, have a list of your issues, and ask for specifics as to how they have been resolved with union help at other institutions.</p>