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</p>
<p>It’s possible that adults with enough age to remember earlier thoughts about the issue of “race” do have a different perspective on these issues. My perspective is that [we</a> can do better than classifying people by race in the first place](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1062907620-post72.html]we”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1062907620-post72.html).</p>
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<p>The federal definition of “white” includes Arab people from whatever country they come from, while the federal definition of “African American” is a synonym for “black,” requiring that a person have origin in one of the “black” ethnic groups of Africa. </p>
<p>[Black</a> or African American persons, percent, 2000](<a href=“http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/meta/long_68176.htm]Black”>http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/meta/long_68176.htm) </p>
<p>So your grandfather was white, period. The Census Bureau rules may not make scientific sense (as the Census Bureau itself says at that link), but the rules are the rules. </p>
<p>Good luck in your applications.</p>
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<p>Um, what?</p>
<p>Let’s do a quick comparison of the average environment into and in which many black childreniare born and educated in comparison to, say, the many white children, as “white” is often taken to mean “control group” in American studies and society.</p>
<p>The majority of white children are born into two-parents households.
Over 70% of black children are born to single mothers.</p>
<p>The average income of a white person (ie. the child’s parents) is $54,920.
The average income of a black person is $33,916.</p>
<p>10.8% of whites live below the poverty line.
24.7% of blacks live below the poverty line.</p>
<p>Over 30% of whites (again, ie: parents, from now, I will leave this as self-explanatory) have a Bachelor’s degree.
Approximately 15% of blacks have a Bachelor’s degree.</p>
<p>72.1% of whites own their own home.
48.1% for blacks own their own home.</p>
<p>And if you should ignore all these, do not forget that black children in the US are constantly bombarded with negative racial stereotypes, the full effect of which I am lucky enough to unable to imagine. They are told, perhaps not aloud, that they are incapable of academic success and that it is alien to their race, that their best avenues of success are undoubtedly music or athleticism (and are further stereotyped as being both rhythmic and athletic), that they are criminal and violent, that they are hypersexual. [They</a> are told that there is only one way to be black in America](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-group_homogeneity_bias]They”>Out-group homogeneity - Wikipedia). And by whom are they told, again, perhaps not aloud, these supposed “truths?” By, quite frequently, authority figures, because other races, which are far more likely to hold and propagate these myths, are teachers, are principals, are doctors, are police officers. If white children are told these things, in the vast majority of cases, it cannot hurt nearly as much, because most of them can simply look around and see evidence of white success. They can look at the 108 white members of the supreme court, the 43 white presidents, most of the people whose names they learn in school, and usually, their teacher, their principal, their doctor, and their police officers.</p>
<p>And we’ve not even considered the the level of inequality in predominately white schools as compared to predominantly black schools!</p>
<p>Do you get what I’m trying to say? I was fortunate enough to be born into a family where I had two parents, where they owned their own home, where they both had college degrees (from an Ivy even), where they had sufficient income, where they could afford (though they chose not to) to send me to private schools, where I could see people who looked like me being successful, etc., etc. I am certain that I would not have the scores or GPA or anything else that I do if I had to live the life above described for blacks. To excel in such a situation takes an excess of willpower and likely, a good fortune, that is surely uncommon. To give the reasons you have given as the “only ones” for the lack of black success shows an ignorance towards the reality of black life in America.</p>
<p>The races in America, taken as wholes unto themselves, are quite simply not in a world of equal opportunity.</p>
<p>The above is not meant to be my thoughts on Affirmative Action as they are incomplete and heavily prejudiced, not by its likely beneficial effect in my college admissions, but by its likely negative effect on people’s perception of my successes.</p>
<p>Millancad-</p>
<p>Well, I agree with you in that the average black is not as well off as the average white. However, your data neglected to mention the most successful race in the college app process, the Asians. The average Asian probably makes slightly above what the average black makes. However, the abuses that those people have suffered has been insidiously hidden by at least the American educational system. We have a black history month, are constantly repremanded for the use of slavery, worship black figures like Mr. Obama, and continue to blame the dramatically higher black crime rate on things such as slavery and racism. </p>
<p>HOWEVER, Asia has been another continent that America has had poor relations with for centuries. Lol when was the last time we were told about Chester Arthur and the Chinese Exculsion Act, the internment camps and oppression they suffered in only briefly mentioned, and the poverty that has been imposed on the now large numbers of Asians coming to the West has been deemed a minor issue.</p>
<p>Now regardless all of this, Asians completely dominate the SAT showing their superior academic acumen consistently. However, I do not even care about that. What I hate is when URMs are let into very good schools (HYPS) based solely the the assumption that because they are a URM they are actively discrimated against. Such as notion might have been true in the 1950s, however today the white male is the one who is most attacked both politically and criminally (as in in court). Think about the Gates incident…basically society became obsessed with rushing to the aid of an alleged abused black male who had been attacked by a white male. </p>
<p>So, take home message, all races have their stereotypes and problems…some races do indeed excel in light of poverty. On top of this, the “white man’s empire” has crumpled and been supplanted by a liberal, minority-obsessed regime that goes out of their way to help URMs but hurt whites. Could I be wrong? Ya, but its just my 2 cents.</p>
<p>
The average income for Asians is $66,103 according to [government</a> data](<a href=“http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/012528.html]government”>http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/012528.html) so no, Asians don’t make slightly more than what average blacks makes. Asians make almost twice what average blacks make ($33,916).</p>
<p>Just correcting you.</p>
<p>Harambee-</p>
<p>Ok, still not changing anything else that I said though. Asians have racial issues so do Blacks. So, while I do stand corrected (when I said the above statement I was focusing more on the more recent Asian immigrants to come over to the US who are probably less wealthy), the bottom line is that race doesnt matter to me. What matters is ones intelligence and to me an Asian/White with a 2400 is just smarter than a Black/Hispanic with a 1900. Of course, the opposite is true as well.</p>
<p>Because asians were able to improve themselves and suceed despite racism. </p>
<p>As Rt said, asians were heavily discriminated against as well, but they were able to suceed.</p>
<p>Anyway, the SATs are heavily biased to people who are good at language. Language takes 2/3s of the test, and math only 1/3. Also the math section is so easy any ordinary math student can score 750+, making it lose it’s purpose. I think the math questions should be at least at an AMC10-easy AIME level, and increase to ~1200 points. </p>
<p>But regardless, just because the SATs are not a perfect indicator of “sucess” as you say, doesn’t mean it doesn’t test knowledge. Imagine thinking without language. Try to describe and sort out what you see in your head without using any words at all. Can you do it? I doubt it. Only with language can we think, and the more words we have, the more precise we can think. In this way, vocab is an indicator of intelligence, because with a larger vocabulary, you have a larger capacity for thought.</p>
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<p>I would much rather eat a meal of only high quality steak than have a variety of rotten garbage. Not saying that URMs are rotten garbage, but I mean I don’t think “diversity” has that big of an effect</p>
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No. If they did, they would have clearly explained why URMs deserve AA. Also there are admins and parents on this forum arguing about this subject.</p>
<p>Sorry, but you can’t compare asian racial issues to black racial issues. We all know about the Chinese exclusion act and all that stuff, but nothing can compare to how blacks were treated throughout the history of the United States. Blacks weren’t even counted as human beings. They were counted as 3/5 of a person. Do you think Asians have been discriminated against to the extent that black people have been discriminated against? If you truly think that then go read your history books one more time. Just because asians were excluded from the U.S doesn’t mean they were tortured, raped, killed, abused, mistreated, mutilated, burned, etc… Blacks have gone through more trials and tribulation than any other race in the U.S. I’m not saying asians weren’t discriminated against, but to say that they were to the extent of blacks is absurd. That was the reason Lyndon Johnson proposed Affirmative Action in the first place. Applying to college isn’t just about intelligence. If it was then the college experience at most elite colleges would be homogenous. No one is saying a black person with a 1900 is smarter than an asian with a 2400. The average black SAT score is a 1280 compared to a 1680 for an asian. It is also true that rich people do better on the SAT than low income families. If asians make more than whites and blacks, of course asians will spend much more money on SAT tutoring courses and other things to help them succeed. </p>
<p>I’m an African American male and I think race shouldn’t play a role in the admissions process. Sometimes I feel like I haven’t earned the right to be in a top 20 school. Besides that, the goal of most colleges is to achieve a diverse student body. They have to use race as a factor in their admissions processes. Its a fact that many blacks get into prestigious universities with lower scores and GPA’s, but that is expected. Most black households lack stability, and parental guidance. They lack financial resources as well as motivation. Black people have are subjects of extreme racial profiling, discrimination and prejudice. The media plays a large role in contributing to racial hardships that blacks experience.</p>
<p>The Robert Gates incident was uncalled for. It was clear that the neighbor was a total idiot. If you have been living in a town for years, how do you not recognize who your neighbor is? Also, after Robert Gates already proved that he owned the home by showing his I.D,the cop asked him to step outside so that he could charge Gates for disorderly conduct. A Cop can’t charge someone for disorderly conduct in their own home. Why would the cop take Gates outside to charge him for a felony or misdemeanor that he didn’t commit? I think Robert Gates acted immature in the situation by yelling and cursing and provoking the cops, but can you blame him? Many people I know get stopped by the cops for no reason at all. </p>
<p>As long as their are racial divisions in the United States there will always be situations were people are treated differently. I hope that our nation can move beyond race, but at the same time every person must be given equal opportunity. Why is it that blacks who have a criminal record can never work? Why is it that in NYC, 1 in 3 black males are unemployed? Is it because of the recession? Race is used in the admissions process to give hope to minorities that are currently struggling in America. Asians make up 4.5% of the population, but make up 10-20% of the student body at an elite college. How is that fair? Asians are qualified, but getting accepted into an elite school isn’t always about numerical qualifications. It’s about substance. Asians that get 2400s on the SAT get rejected because they don’t have anything else to offer in their applications for the most part. They lack substance.</p>
<p>Diversity has huge effects on people. I’ve met a person from Kansas who has never talked to a black person before. Diversity allows people to communicate with each other. It allows people to share their different experiences, backgrounds, etc. Diversity is a crucial part of growing up. College is all about growing up and experiencing different people. It is about preparing for real world situations and problems. The people that go to these elite universities will be put in positions of high power some day. They have to experience all kinds of people to work effectively. Diversity matters!</p>
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<p>I said in the beginning of the post that I was only doing blacks and whites. It was more a matter of time than anything else. I can post the same stats on Asian home ownership, educational attainment, household income, percentage below the poverty line, etc. and you will see that Asians, as a whole, have a much higher quality of life than blacks, and in some areas, might be said to have a higher quality of life than whites themselves. You should note that I did not talk about blacks still suffering from slavery or from Jim Crow legislation, so past issues of Asian discrimination do not matter either. What is important is the present environment in which children come of age.</p>
<p>
I’ve never had a teacher walk up to the white kids in class and berate them for possibly having ancestors who held slaves, nor for possibly having ancestors who participated in the genocide of Native Americans, nor for anything else. So if you’re complaining that slavery is described as a scourge of humanity, I don’t know what to say to you, because it was (and is, as it unfortunately still exists) all the evils we say it is and more.
The existence of black history month, as well as women’s history month (March) and Asian history month (May), is an admission that all the other months are white ones and serves as a poor try to involve the history of the “other” in classes since often no attempt is made to weave it throughout a class. Some of black history month’s biggest critics, among whom are the Nation of Islam and Morgan Freeman, are black.
So should we note celebrate Obama? We have only had one non-white president, one non-white VP, three non-white members of the Supreme Court. I don’t understand how you think ignoring our country’s prejudices will aid their destruction. We cannot erase discrimination we ignore, we cannot end racism of which we are (or pretend to be) unaware. I’m not big on politics, though I would have to say I lean Democratic, so I suppose I can celebrate Obama’s victory in that sense, but what’s important to me, and what I hope many would recognize is that he’s a rare example in the media of a black person who did not make it to success through the venues of entertainment. I’m glad that black children can have someone to look at, someone for whom they don’t have to search in the library, someone who is in their face, black and successful, because, considering the lives most black children lead, looking at the numbers which make up their lives, many of them don’t. It’s incredibly, incredibly difficult to believe in your ability to be successful when no success for people like you is visible. Is our media’s oversaturation with the Obamas annoying? Surely, especially in the early days when what the daughters were having for lunch was considered noteworthy, but I don’t expect much more from 24 hour cable news.
Could you give me citations of those who claim that black crime is caused by slavery? I can see it, or the illusion of it, being caused by racism blacks are more likely to be arrested on the same charges as whites, more likely to be incarcerated if arrested, but I cannot refute this until you’ve given me something other than opinion.</p>
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<p>The last time I was told (in school. I went to a seminar on Japanese internment a few months ago) was last year, and considering that my most recent history classes were Art History and Human Geography, I didn’t really expect to be told this year. I don’t know how old you are or where you live, but here, no quality HS or middle school American history class would be taught without us learning about the internment of the Japanese, about discrimination against Chinese railroad workers. And, if you really want to discuss the effect of past discrimination on present people, most Asians in America now are 1st or 2nd generation immigrants and are not the direct descendants of those who suffered in the 19th and early 20th centuries, so there is no inheritance of suffering. The Asians who are succeeding now do not have that history in America, just as the African immigrants who succeed do not have that history in America. </p>
<p>
There’s this idea, well, actually, it’s a very prevalent stereotype, that all Asians are smart and are great at the SAT, and everything else. This isn’t really part of my counter argument, but just something I like to tell people. While, Asians as a whole race are successful, if you being to split the race up into ethnic groups and nationalities, you see a truer story. Hmong, Laotians and Cambodians drop out of HS at rates of 66%, 58%, and 56%, respectively. I haven’t seen their average SAT scores, but with drop out rates like that, I really doubt those groups are “dominating.” And if you go to look at income levels, guess what you’ll see? That’s right, they’re low. While the overall Asian American average income in 1999 (most recent year I could find) was $57,874, compared to the overall American average of $50,046, for example, that for Cambodian Americans was only $35,434, nearly 40 percent less than the overall Asian American and 30 percent less than the national average. Had I world enough and time, I’d try to find you statistics on their home ownership, educational attainment, etc., but it’s 3 AM and income level is a pretty good indicator of what the rest of a life is like. </p>
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URMs are “let” into schools, but whites and Asians deserve acceptance? Wow.
Can you really give me any decent proof that the white male is the most attacked? Because it’s a rather outlandish statement. I don’t even know what you’re trying to say about the Gates incident. </p>
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<p>No race, as a whole, excels in poverty. None of them.
The Opportunity Cost of Admission Preferences at Elite Universities shows that being non-Hispanic white alone (not legacy, not athelete, not anything else) neither hurts or helps in admissions.</p>
<p>“Asians make up 4.5% of the population, but make up 10-20% of the student body at an elite college. How is that fair?”</p>
<p>People with SAT scores greater than 1700 make up only 28% of the population, but make up nearly 100% of the student body at an elite college. How is THAT fair?</p>
<p>Oh, right. It’s because elite colleges do not exist in order to “foster diversity”. They do so to precisely the extent that they believe it will help their ACTUAL purpose: to take the students who will be most successful and give them the best education.</p>
<p>It would be one thing if, as people here seem to assume all too often, anyone who does not get into a top 50 school has an inferior education. But in reality, a bachelor’s degree from Princeton and a bachelor’s degree from CSU Stanislaus don’t look all that different. So it’s not like anyone who doesn’t get into tier 1 schools is being denied an education.</p>
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<p>They were. Anyway, even if asians didn’t suffer as much as blacks, they still were discriminated against, correct? Does that mean they deserve AA too, just to a lesser extent than blacks?</p>
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<p>Exactly.</p>
<p>Elite university standards increase year by year. There are many students taking the SAT and many students are scoring above average. Asians and white SAT scores increase every year while black and hispanic SAT scores fluctuate. 28% of the population gets a 1700 on the SAT. Average SAT score for an asian is a 1680 and for a white its a 1650. Now 85% of the student body at an elite college is white or asian. Minorities represent lets say 15%. Of course a 1700 SAT score would be pretty much non-existent. Elite schools aren’t looking for average SAT scores. They are looking for outstanding SAT scores. It isn’t fair, but that is their standard. </p>
<p>Asians were discriminated against, but if Asians are over-represented at colleges and universities then why should they be given preferential treatment? That doesn’t make any sense. Affirmative action is in essence " an active effort to improve the employment or educational opportunities of members of minority groups and women ; also : a similar effort to promote the rights or progress of other disadvantaged persons"Asians are a minority in terms of looking at the U.S population as a whole, but when it comes to educational opportunities, they are far from being a minority. Hence the 66k a year average income.</p>
<p>Asians are extremely qualified. I congratulate them because even though they faced discrimination in the past, they have been able to move on and excel. African Americans on the other hand is a different story. I have met ex-black panther people that still seek revenge against white people. Most Black people haven’t moved on, but hopefully this will change.</p>
<p>A bachelors degree from Princeton is highly prestigious. Princeton, Harvard… all of those schools are excellent schools. They are viewed nationally and internationally as premier institutions of higher education. A bachelors degree from lets say a top 30-100 college wouldn’t carry as much weight as a bachelors from Princeton. When you begin to look at graduate institutions the disparity between Harvard and Princeton and top 30-100 schools widens.</p>
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It’s not? How is it not fair?</p>
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And whose fault is this?</p>
<p>
Okay… what are you trying to say from that? We know harvard and princeton are more prestigious than most other schools… so what?</p>
<p>You’re not making an argument here. You just said some facts. Also, I agree it doesn’t make sense to give asians preferential treatment. But the same applies to blacks, hispanics etc.</p>
<p>I love the fact that everyone denies that the UC are elite universities when they hold many of the best medical schools and graduate schools in the nation, even if you don’t want to count undergrad.</p>
<p>Oh what diversity? Seems like they have a fine time getting by.</p>
<p>
A study by Duke revealed that even when looking at applications through more subjective aspects, Asians were still on top of every category except for personal character, on which they lost out to Caucasians by mere fractions of a point.</p>
<p>The holistic argument is a red herring used to fool people into believing that Asians aren’t getting in because they’re textureless.</p>
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<p>Wow. Let me put in a list for you:</p>
<ol>
<li>I don’t think anybody is asking for Asians to be given preferential treatment</li>
<li>Not all Asians live the same ways - wow, there are poor ones! Can you believe it?</li>
<li>Asians are still a minority, even if they’re not “underrepresented”</li>
<li>Lots of people say that Asians have higher incomes because they have more family members working, not necessarily** because they have better educations or antyhing</li>
</ol>
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Two words: socioeconomic diversity. Trying to accomplish diversity by focusing on race only backfires on the original purpose of integration.</p>
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<p>I think people are ignoring a major fact, which I mentioned in my post. The vast, vast majority of blacks are descendants of people who lived in America during slavery and Jim Crow. There are 36.6 million non-Hispanic black people in the US. About 35 million of these people are of traditional ancestry, ie, they were descended from slaves or people in American in the early 20th century. Only 1 million blacks are recent immigrants. This is not true for Asians. More then 3/4th (75.9%) of the Asian population came to United States over the last two decades. They are not the descendants of those who were interned, who suffered from the Chinese Exclusion Act, who were abused as railroad workers. These Asians aren’t moving on from discrimination their parents and grandparents suffered in America. They’re entirely new people.</p>
<p>Affirmative Action accounts for two things in the US: diversity and opportunity. It does not account for the past in any direct way. Colleges are going to Asians (though not the most diverse mix of Asians, as Hmong, Cambodian, and Laotian groups, and others, suffer in admissions w/o affirmative action) if they are not helped by affirmative actions. Present Asians have not inherited the losses caused by previous discrimination because the gross majority of them are recent immigrants. Asians do not suffer from a lack of opportunity in the way that blacks or Hispanics do.</p>
<p>Entertainer:</p>
<p>No black has been treated as you described in several generations. How many more generations must pay for the sins committed so long ago? </p>
<p>For the record, when Congress passed the three-fifths compromise, the few Asians who lived in the US (and many other non-whites) weren’t counted at all. They were considered zero-fifths. This argument doesn’t make any sense, anyway. It was the slaveholders who wanted to count slaves as they would count a white person, and it was the abolitionists who didn’t want to count slaves at all. Had the abolitionists prevailed, and had slaves not been counted as all, slavery likely would have ended sooner, so please drop the argument. It’s backwards. </p>
<p>You need to follow the Robert Gates incident more closely. The neighbor was not an idiot. Read the transcript of the 911 call. She couldn’t see the faces of the people banging on the door. When pressed, she said one of the men might be Hispanic. There was no racial profiling in this case. The cop asked Gates to step outside because that is police procedure. The officer had no idea if anyone else was in the house. Officers are trained to avoid being ambushed, and this means getting people outside when a disturbance inside is taking place. Your implication that Gates was set-up is ludicrous. The fact that President Obama, the mayor of Cambridge, and the Governor of Massachusetts (all black) immediately jumped to the conclusion that the white police officer was guilty of racial profiling is exactly what makes the rest of the country so frustrated. African Americans are so pre-disposed to see racism in every situation, the rest of us are numb to it. </p>
<p>I agree with one point you made. As long as there are racial divisions in the United States there will always be situations where people are treated differently. But who is keeping these divisions alive? I’ve never seen an Asian yell that they should be given special treatment because of their race. Hispanic activists make this claim, but few Hispanics do. Native Americans don’t. African Americans appear to me to be the ones who are keeping the divisions alive. You have BET. No other race has their own television network. You have Ms. Black America. Can you imagine the hysteria if there was a Ms. White America? You have colleges that cater only to African Americans. For no other race is this true. I could go on for days. </p>
<p>The bottom line is that if African Americans want to live in a society where race doesn’t matter, they need to stop making race matter. The rest of us are already trying to live in such a world.</p>
<p>Anyway, as a legal matter, the United States Supreme Court has more than once rejected a reparations theory of affirmative action. The Court has held that the only constitutionally permissible basis for race-conscious admission policies at state universities under the fourteenth amendment is the interest of every enrolled student (and thus the derived interest of university admission officers) in having a diverse atmosphere on campus. </p>
<p>See the earlier [post</a> #8](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1062867298-post8.html]post”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1062867298-post8.html) in this thread citing the Supreme Court cases.</p>