"Race" in College Admissions FAQ & Discussion 4

Entertainer · August 3, 2009, 1:43pm

Black and Hispanic people don’t have equal opportunity in this country. It may seem like it but the reality is just the opposite. That is why they need “preferential treatment” in some cases. A white convicted felon has the same chance at getting a job as a black man with no record. Thats equal opportunity right? Compare white, black and asian household incomes. Whites and asians make almost two times as much as blacks. Thats suggests that there is equal opportunity right?

Affirmative action and using race as an admissions factor is outlawed in California. Affirmative action is unconstitutional. Race is used as an admissions factor at other Universities to achieve a more diverse student body(Legal form of affirmative action). It may seem like blacks and hispanics get “preferential treatment”, but thats not the case. Asians were discriminated in the past, but are they now? Blacks and hispanics are still heavily discriminated and profiled. There is a bias against blacks and hispanics in our country.

Look at Columbia University, or UNC and UVA. They are doing spectacular. Your argument is basically stating that schools don’t need to be diverse to be great institutions. Of course not, money is needed to create a great institution, not the student body. California is the richest state in the union by GDP. They are the 8th largest economy in the world. Of course they can create great undergraduate and graduate institutions with an economy of that size. Look at the University of Michigan. They receive only 320 million dollars from the state a year(8% of their total budget), but have a 7.6 billion dollar endowment. I will say it again Money is needed to create a great institution. Harvard has the best schools in the country. Why? Because they also have the most money to fund those schools in terms of research and other resources that they will provide to their students. Elite universities want students that demonstrate in High school that they can take advantage of the resources provided to them. This usually is expressed through GPA, SAT scores.

How can talented blacks who grew up in disadvantaged neighborhoods, dysfunctional households and financially unstable homes, express in their college application that they took advantage of opportunities given to them? Its hard right? I’m stating that black and hispanics need a way out. They need to be given the opportunity if they show that despite the hardships they have faced, they can take advantage of the resources given to them. With all the discrimination and prejudice that blacks have faced, there needs to be a system that recognizes those few instances where blacks with 3.5-3.7 GPA have overcome more adversity than an Asian with a 4.0 or higher GPA.

The UC system has been subject to many lawsuits regarding bias for asians and whites. The UC schools are elite, but what makes them suffer is the lack of diversity. Not in terms of the quality of their undergrad or graduate institutions, but from a social perspective. “GPA and test scores don’t create the best doctors, but the ability to communicate effectively with different people does.” Diversity allows a student body to communicate with different people from different cultures, backgrounds, sexual orientations, etc. We are a nation of many cultures, and a school that lacks diversity gives up the ability to communicate effectively with people that are different. It’s a shame that the UC system has regressed its perspective on race.

An admissions officer came to my school one time and I asked him why are there so many asians at elite universities? He said that the asian culture is centered around education. Many asians get the highest GPA’s and test scores because that is their culture. He also said that elite universities can’t just accept asians into top universities because they would overrun whites, blacks and every other race. The student body would be homogenous, thus less effective. He also said that “When I see a black student with a 4.0 that is spectacular to me… Its spectacular because thats one student out of a few that achieved a 4.0, unlike the asian student body at most elite universities where most students apply with 4.0’s.”

I will agree that black people contribute to the increasing racial division in our nation, but its not their fault. I get stopped by the cops for no reason at all. Am I supposed to believe that the cop had a suspicion that I had drugs in my car or was it because I was black? I get 5 years in prison for selling crack cocaine, but a white person who deals powdered cocaine gets a two year sentence. Discrimination and bias against African Americans will produce racial divisions in our country. Our nation is progressing in the right direction, but there is a lot more that needs to be done.

[Public</a> Warming to Affirmative Action as Supreme Court Hears Michigan Case](<a href=“Public Warming to Affirmative Action as Supreme Court Hears Michigan Case”>Public Warming to Affirmative Action as Supreme Court Hears Michigan Case)

[Blacks:</a> Whites Have Advantage in College Admissions](<a href=“http://www.gallup.com/poll/18487/Blacks-Whites-Advantage-College-Admissions.aspx]Blacks:”>http://www.gallup.com/poll/18487/Blacks-Whites-Advantage-College-Admissions.aspx)

I don’t know how to quote people lol.

Old_College_Try · August 3, 2009, 2:23pm

Entertainer:

We all wish African Americans were not stuck in a cycle of violence and poverty. We differ only when it comes to the solution to the problem. As your messages indicates, you believe others (and specifically the government) are the ones who must solve the African American problem. I disagree. Everything I’ve read shows me that the problems are getting worse, not better, notwithstanding decades of government intervention.

I personally think the problems will exist until the African American community embraces the idea that only they can solve the problem, not any outsiders. The crux of the problem seems to me to be the fact that so many African American children grow up without both parents in the home. Asians almost always have both parents around. The government can’t change that. The culture of non-achievement is also a big problem. Many African Americans in my school could absolutely nail grades but they choose not to because they view achievement as an attempt to “be white.” That has to change, but the government can’t change it.

There are a lot of people in this world who experience prejudice and hate. Asians succeed because they know no one can keep them down if they work hard enough. When people like Bill Cosby try to communicate this idea to the African American community, many take offense. They believe, as you stated, that “it isn’t our fault.” In my opinion, the problems will always be here as long as African Americans see the solutions in the hands of others.

mokusatsu · August 3, 2009, 2:24pm

Since the Supreme Court decisions only apply to public universities, private universities such as the USNWR top 20 remain free to consider factors other than diversity.

iatv = Asian network
and there are four Spanish-language over-the-air television networks, plus cable-only channels

chaosakita · August 3, 2009, 2:29pm

But there are still poor whites and Asians, as well as rich Latinos and blacks. Race is not the only thing that determines how successful someone will be.

What exactly is diversity to you?

What exactly is “Asian” culture? It’s kinda big, you know?

Why should Asians be punished just because other people with the same continental origin decide to do well too?

It’s a Gallup poll.

Yes, very lolz-worthy indeed.

lurk moar~

Old_College_Try · August 3, 2009, 2:42pm

chaosakita: I should have been more clear. I wasn’t referring to television stations that broadcast in other languages; of course there are tons of those. I was referring to English-language stations created to cater to one race. To my knowledge, there is only one of those.

Lollerpants · August 3, 2009, 2:43pm

So… basically you’re saying that because it’s in my culture, I have to try twice as hard as other people? Or… I have to purposely try to distinguish myself even though the only subjects I really like are sciences and math? So… because of my perceived culture (which fails either way, because math was the only thing that Asians could do well in because of the language barrier and math is universal), to get into an elite university I have to try to be something I’m not?

I think that’s a major reason why AA does not make sense.

Unlike many of the people on this thread, I’ve already been to college. Though diversity sounds all nice and what not, but the truth is, colleges, at least MANY groups within the colleges are self segregating to begin with because when you start to make friends you want to find something in common. “Cultural” similarities apply as well. So saying that an effective learning environment requires diversity, is not that true. At least in my opinion.

I’m pretty sure the UC schools have produced plenty good doctors. I don’t see anyone there complaining about this issue either. I mean the people actually within the school. The problem with the example you gave with regards to that admissions officer can be taken as offensive and racist. First of all, the whole problem occurs that AA is NOT being used when A = B picking the student who comes from a less entitled background. Though there is obviously no proof for this, but there are obvious “points added” from being a URM. And also, if Asians worked harder, be it from parental pressure or “culture”, why should they be subjected to harsher standards?

Asians basically never complained for the discrimination during the 1800s-1900s, yet even after “succeeding” against the white man that put them down by establishing themselves as a well-off minority without many troubles, they’re still being subjected to harsher standards now in the college admissions process?

Kind of a one sided argument from them, methinks.

collegealum314 · August 3, 2009, 2:45pm

This is garbage.

Lollerpants · August 3, 2009, 2:47pm

Especially when the bulk of med school admissions is still made by GPA/MCAT…

Millancad · August 3, 2009, 3:10pm

Groups of Asians and whites that have low incomes don’t have huge success either. An example I gave before: The average Cambodian income was $35,434 in 1999 (most recent year I could find) and the drop out rate was 56%. No group, not Latinos, not blacks, but not Asians and whites either, is hugely overcoming their income level.

That’s because there’s only one minority ethnic group in America that uses English almost exclusively. It’s okay for every minority group but blacks to have their own television channels simply because every other group did not have their culture and languages stolen from them through slavery and cultural diffusion?
There are, I should mention, Desi TV channels with a lot of English broadcasts. BET is the only English minority-targeted TV channel that is offered on basic cable because blacks are a much bigger group than any other minority that has English as a “home language,” we might call it, and it’s not worth it, speaking strictly in terms of revenue for the companies, to offer those channels in the regular line up.

Perhaps the reason they aren’t complaining is that it didn’t happen to their ancestors? Again, 75.9% of Asians immigrated to America within the last 20 years. If we were to go back 30, or perhaps 40 years, I’m sure we’d get to much higher percentages, because the vast majority of Asians are 1st or 2nd gen immigrants. They aren’t descendants of people who were interned or suffered while building the railroads, they didn’t overcome that discrimination.

Lollerpants · August 3, 2009, 3:12pm

Millancad,

I see you as a type of person who would probably argue that living conditions are horrible in China as well.

Just my opinion.

Still, I see that you did not address the fact that even if I’m Asian, which I never chose to be, I’m automatically set at higher standards.

mokusatsu · August 3, 2009, 3:14pm

“All of iaTVs programs are either in English or subtitled in English”
<a href=“http://www.iaei.tv/v2/iatv.php[/url]”>http://www.iaei.tv/v2/iatv.php</a>

Country Music Television and The Nashville Network also were created to cater to one race.

Old_College_Try · August 3, 2009, 3:32pm

“Country Music Television and The Nashville Network also were created to cater to one race.”

That’s like saying Hip Hop or Jazz is just for African Americans. Music is not a color. There are plenty of non-white people who enjoy country music, and those stations certainly weren’t created to cater to whites any more than the NBA Channel was intended to cater to blacks.

Millancad · August 3, 2009, 3:51pm

“Plenty” is an entirely meaningless word here. There are over 36 million black people in the united states. 1% of them is “plenty” of people.
Music is a part of culture, and white Americans are a cultural group just like African-Americans. Hip-Hop and jazz were created by and for blacks just as country was by and for whites. Approximately 80% of recent top rated country songs were performed by white male artists. I’m betting most of the remaining 20% were performed by white females. Country music stations were created for whites much more than the NBA channel (I had no idea where was an NBA channel!) was created for blacks. The majority of people who watch NBA games are white. Only 12% of Southern blacks (best stat I could find, but as the plurality of blacks life in the South, I think it’s representative) reported liking country music in 2001–02 according to a study by UNC. Music is cultural and culture is racial.

Old_College_Try · August 3, 2009, 4:16pm

That’s such nonsense, Millencad. Why pretend?

BET Network’s corporate statements sets forth its mission statement and purpose: To be “the nation’s leading provider of quality entertainment, music, news and public affairs television programming for the African-American audience.” Please find me a corporate statement from the Country Music Channel that says its purpose is to provide entertanment to white people.

White people like ice hockey, country music, and yoga more than other races, but to say that these forms of entertainment were created exclusively for white people is as ridiculous as saying high school tennis and the Key Club were created for Asians. I am not denying that different skin colors result in different cultures, but that observation is a red herring.

The point of my prior message was that I find it ironic that African Americans love to divide themselves on racial grounds when it suits their desires, but they then complain that society is divided on racial grounds when it doesn’t. If we are to live in a society where color doesn’t matter, then we need to start acting as if color doesn’t matter.

AP930 · August 3, 2009, 4:45pm

If the average Cambodian has the same economic income as the average Black, why is the Cambodian’s chances at getting into an elite school lower than those of a Black if we assume both have identical stats? Is it because Cambodians just happen to belong to the Asian continent?

Moreover, a rich Black would have a significant advantage over a poor ORM/non-URM (e.g. a Cambodian) merely because of AA.

superjew · August 3, 2009, 4:47pm

i was just wondering

if a person didn’t report their ethnicity and if their name sounded somewhat black, would AA help?

mokusatsu · August 3, 2009, 4:53pm

There are plenty of white people who watch BET.

Asians created yoga.

Lollerpants · August 3, 2009, 4:58pm

Asians also created gun powder, the compass, paper making, etc.

Very astute observation.

AP930 · August 3, 2009, 5:05pm

And Caucasians invented table tennis. Does it cater only to them?

Millancad · August 3, 2009, 5:09pm

There’s never going to be a corporate statement from anything that it’s made for white people, because, first of all, it’s not PC, and secondly, whites are the biggest group in America. Anything is going to be primarily directed towards them, or at the very least made in a way that will include and not upset them, unless otherwise stated. Thirdly, most whites don’t culturally identify as white. They see themselves as part of cultural sub groups, so companies can make the most money by targeting each subgroup individually.

“White people like […] yoga more than other races.”
LOL! Really? Wow.

I should have avoided bringing up the creation of Country music because it’s creation doesn’t matter. It’s present as culturally white music does. The way a people generally choose to spend their time is part of what makes culture. Buddhism was not founded in East Asia but it is undeniably a part of East Asian culture. Cricket was not created by Desis, but it is nonetheless a part of Desi culture.

Exclusivity doesn’t matter. There are Buddhists and cricket players of every race. We’re not talking about which races take part in activities, we’re talking about which activities are cultural traits. Country music is a part of modern white American culture, just as Hip-Hop and Rap are a part of modern black American culture, just as bhangra is a part of modern Desi culture.

And whites don’t divide themselves on racial grounds? Most people, no matter what race they are, live and work around and associate with people primarily of their own race.

It’s ridiculous for people to start acting as if color doesn’t matter in a society where it blatantly does. France pretends color doesn’t matter and it obviously hasn’t helped their race relations. Ignoring color when there are still huge and growing gaps doesn’t help.

ETA: AP930

Sorry, if I made it look like that was a reason I was in favor of AA. I don’t have an “official” non self-centered stance on AA (my gut reaction is, “I hate it! Now people will think I’m only doing [blank] because I’m a URM!!!” or something silly like that), but when I start to consider it beyond myself and beyond the big “It should be economic” view point, the lack of success of Hmong, Laotian, and Cambodian youths is one of the main reasons I don’t like it. The idea of “ORMs” and AA action policies that hurt them as a whole really, really hurt minority groups hidden within the big Asian label. I really like UCLA’s APAC disaggregation “Count Me In!” program and think it’s moving in the right direction.

"Race" in College Admissions FAQ & Discussion 4

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