Racing Seats/harness but no airbags: safe vehicle for our boy?

Parent Cafe
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<p>S-2 worked hard all summer and is now in financial position to buy a used car to commute to essential internships in L.A. by freeway next year, with some $ help from us.</p>

<p>He found a car online from a dealer in CA. Excellent deal: $11K for used one-owner Toyota Corolla S with just 50K miles, I think it’s 2003. Car’s only been in CA, which attracts us b/c here we deal with salt-damaged cars from snow. Also it’s not from Midwest – some flood damaged cars go onto market, and it’s not one of those.</p>

<p>Lots of eye-candy, too: neon blue here and there, and Bomz racing seats installed with a harness. We 3 agreed it was, by far, the best $ deal from cars H & S researched so far. </p>

<p>H engaged a mechanic in CA to inspect it. Upon hearing that, dealer called us and said the racing seat installation meant that the airbags had been forever de-activated. </p>

<p>We deflated, but are researching because if there was a way to make this car safe again economically, we would. Or maybe it <em>is</em> already safer than the usual??</p>

<p>Dealer’s mechanic said, “Racing seats with harness are equal, if not safer than, a car with airbag/safety belt. Seat is installed low, driver is held in by harness.”</p>

<p>Son adds: a Corolla is so much metal that, overall, for safety this trumps a lighter car with regular airbags. Car metal body absorbs most impact anyways, before it reaches the driver, says S. Plus: Racing seats means head can’t whip backwards, altho head could whip forwards. </p>

<p>Son’s car habits/judgement re: l00% safety belt usage, non-alcohol, responsible driving are all superior. I read that if there’s a harness it must be used each time, as some people have these cars but find the harness uncomfortable so don’t use it in street driving. I think he’ll do fine with dilligence.</p>

<p>We’d have to check with insurance company if they’d cover an accident when safety device had been removed. I hear it’s hard to get a straight answer on that point in advance. To remove such a device is illegal, but once it’s been removed, for some reason the car is legal, since people are allowed on roads without airbags now. (No logic there, but that’s what we learned so far).</p>

<p>There’s some issue about a submarine buckle and I don’t see one on this car.
That keeps the passenger from slipping low and having harness hit the ribs.</p>

<p>So, if you’ve read this far, thank you.</p>

<p>My questions:</p>

<li><p>Any way to retrofit another kind of seatbelt with built-in airbags into this vehicle, to reintroduce airbags? </p></li>
<li><p>Our racing driver friend (long story) says: Race drivers use helmet and HANS (not sure what that is); without using those, don’t buy a car for street/freeway use. Do you agree?</p></li>
<li><p>Would you even consider such a car for your responsible S or D? Or move on.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Thanks. </p>

<p>PS: I feel I need TECHNICAL advice, or guidance/links to research such a car. I’m doing much online research today, but don’t know the territory at all. Even a good website would be helpful. I’m swimming here.</p>

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<p>Best to call your insurance agent ASAP. The agent will evaluate the safety because actuaries have analyzed every possible detail & modification & the impact these have on safety. I wouldn’t rely on internet research, where those who are pushing for street legal modifications will be less than objective. </p>

<p>Here’s my non technical opinion: What teenage boy wouldn’t want this cool car? I’m afraid son’s arguments in favor of the purchase shouldn’t carry much weight.</p>

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<p>Will your son want to put on a racing harness every time he gets in the car? How about passengers? (I don’t know anything about racing harnesses, but it sounds like they might be constricting.)</p>

<p>My son was critically injured in a single car crash in his Toyota Corolla. He lost control of his car when he swerved to miss a deer. His airbag saved him (but just barely, as he suffered a fractured skull and brain hemorrhage) after he hit a telephone pole and it came to rest about an inch from his head. </p>

<p>Would a racing harness hold your son’s head completely stationary? That might be an important consideration since there won’t be an airbag to protect him if he hits something like a telephone pole.</p>

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<p>I would, as a former racer car hot rodder, be very reluctant to buy a car fitted out for racing. You don’t put in that stuff unless you plan to drive hard. Find another car. Also it is hard to tell if the seats and harness were properly bolted to the car. Mounting points need to be very secure and reinforced. Did they mount the seat with the proper number of high grade (8 or above)bolts? Is the angle on the harness belts correct? You do not want a steep angle for the belts.</p>

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<p>As barrons points out, installing racing seats and disconnecting safety equipment is generally incompatible with light usage – and light usage is what you want when purchasing a used car.</p>

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<p>I wouldn’t touch that car with a ten foot pole - and I have been a hot car person all of my life (my dad collected and drove historic race cars.) </p>

<p>If the car has had those modifications, odds are extremely good that the car has been driven extremely hard. 50,000 hard miles is probably equal to 200,000 normal miles in terms of stress on the engine and transmission. I would be shocked if the car did not need a great deal of money put into it over the next couple of years.</p>

<p>I’d move on and find another car…</p>

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<p>paying3tuitions, I’ve included this reference to explain what a HANS device is. I recall that after Dale Earnhardt died in an auto racing accident, there was lots of discussion about this product and whether it should be required for use with race cars. You always give posters such sound advice, paying3, perhaps our collective sound advice to you is, "please find another “cool” car for him.
[HANS</a> device - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device]HANS”>HANS device - Wikipedia)</p>

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<p>I wouldn’t consider it without airbags. I wouldn’t even consider one without curtain airbags because so many head injuries are caused from side impact. It is my understanding that an airbag is the single most effective lifesaving apparatus - after the seatbelt I suppose. The more airbags the better.</p>

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<p>Agree with Cartera. There’s no good reason to get a car without a complete set of airbags these days.</p>

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<p>Let’s see how many alarm bells are going off…</p>

<p>Racing seat(s) replace driver or driver and front passenger buckets.
Five point racing harness installed. What about the front passenger side?
Air bags deactivated: Just unplugged or was the steering wheel replaced? It’s likely that the front passenger side air bag was unplugged. The dealer claims the air bags are “forever deactivated”. Doesn’t sound like just unplugged.
Neon lights attached to the car’s undercarriage. I believe the lights can only be on while parked in any of the 50 states. It’s illegal to have them on while driving.
The Corolla came standard with 15” rims. What size rims and tires are on the car now?
Any engine modifications…?
Are the terms “street racing”, “autocross” or “drifting” part of your daily vocabulary? Maybe not…</p>

<p>Japanese car, loads of modifications and Southern California. All this adds up to Hot Import Nights. See: [Hot</a> Import Nights - car shows, car models, music and lifestyle events](<a href=“http://www.hotimportnights.com/home.asp]Hot”>http://www.hotimportnights.com/home.asp) . When visiting this site, be sure you speakers are on and the volume turned up really high. </p>

<p>To further your education, see all three of the Fast and Furious movies.</p>

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<p>I saw Tokyo Drift - found it by accident late one night and it was like watching a train wreck - I couldn’t stop watching. I had no idea people did those things so I did a little research and found some really sad stories about real life people who “drifted off” so to speak. My D’s car is Mazda 3 - with all the sets of airbags - and I had no idea until after I bought it that they are popular for drifting.</p>

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<p>p3t:</p>

<p>I agree with Barron’s and the others regarding the probability that this car has been driven hard and it could very well be in for engine, transmission, and suspension problems plus who knows how many dashboard and other rattles. On top of that it has an aftermarket seat that may or may not have been designed well. A full racing harness, properly used, may be safer than a shoulder belt with airbags but for a racing harness to be properly used it has to first be anchored properly and then be cinched up tight to not allow movement - probably not so comfortable for daily driving. The seat also has to be built and anchored properly. The way some people anchor seats/belts the bolts can pull right through the sheet metal in an accident.</p>

<p>I’d also be wary of any used car deals that seem to be almost too good of a deal.</p>

<p>I think your S should skip this car and keep looking. There are thousands of other similar cars for sale. What’s he looking for? Maybe I’ll keep my eye out for him.</p>

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<p>I am an accident reconstructionist and biomechanical injury expert who has seen hundreds of crash tests, etc.</p>

<p>A standard combination lap-and-shoulder seatbelt is referred to as a 3-point seatbelt (attaches at both sides of the pelvis and at left shoulder of driver), because it is attached to three points on the vehicle.</p>

<p>Some companies sell retrofit 4-point seatbelts (attach at both sides of pelvis and at both left and right shoulders). Some studies have shown a tendency for 4-point seatbelts to lead to more submarining injuries (i.e. when you slide underneath the lap belt in a bad frontal impact and sustain abdominal injuries).</p>

<p>Race car drivers wear 6-point seatbelts (similar to a 4-point system, but extra straps that buckle down to hold inner thighs down to seat); this eliminates submarining. Infant car seats include only a single post at crotch, so infant car seats are usually 3-point or 5-point restraints, but this is obviously not acceptable for adult males (ouch!).</p>

<p>As mentioned above, the HANS device is strapped to a helmet and keeps it from moving forward due to a frontal impact. This only works if you are wearing the helmet.</p>

<p>Airbags make a difference in a very, very small percentage of motor vehicle accidents. For nearly all accident scenarios, a lap-and-shoulder seatelted driver with no airbag is substantially safer than an unbelted driver with an airbag. Clearly, both seatbelts and airbags would be better for nearly all accidents.</p>

<p>That being said, it is clear that this vehicle was modified for racing. If you have a straight-laced son who likes this car and you are completely confident that he will use it only for normal commuting, etc., then this car is probably OK, comparably as safe as any other car. But if your son has any male friends who may encourage him to try to “see what this car can do,” or if you fear that your son may just want to just get a little edgy once in a while, then I would avoid this vehicle.</p>

<p>By the way, your son’s argument that because of the extra metal (from modifications?) this is a safer vehicle than a lighter vehicle is only true if he happens to have a two-vehicle collision with a lighter vehicle. If he is unfortunate enough to have a single-vehicle accident and hit something rigid (such as a tree or telephone pole), then a stiffer vehicle will actually cause him to undergo larger accelerations. That is why Indy cars designed such that they have several feet of the front end that is crushed when they hit a wall. Otherwise, the drivers could not survive the high-speed impacts. In other words, if you were in the same seat with the same seatbelt traveling at 30 mph, a vehicle that gets crushed a few feet across the front end when hitting a tree would be less dangerous than if you were driving a very stiff Hummer. Obviously, bigger vehicles “win” when hitting other smaller vehicles.</p>

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<p>Do not get sucked into buying this car. Go to a dealer and get a car with airbags. Insist that he buy a car with airbags. Also, eye candy cars with a young male driver are sure to be pulled over by the cops.</p>

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<p>Safety is most important, but did want to add one more thing. I have a relative whose parents bought her a brand new white sports car. She drove this car to a residential public 2 year college. This is a college where there are many students who could not afford a clunker. Her car ended up with all windows and both windshields being smashed. All the glass was completely shattered and laying inside her car. Family got a phone call from a hysterical college student. Her brother ended up driving to the college to get the car and drive it someplace for repair.</p>

<p>P3t, I know that your son is not at the same type of college, but I think that having a car that stands out that much might not be the best idea, even though it might be his dream car.</p>

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<p>Thank you all for this helpful and generous advice. As icing on the cake, our insurance man says it’dd cost us $7K to insure him in this particular car.</p>

<p>So we’re on to other choices, much easier to handle than this surprising one that captured us here for a day.</p>

<p>Many thanks to all. CC rocks. If I want to watch NASCAR, it’s on TV. The thread has amazed me for all the posters who are also car people. All your advice was helpful, but special thanks to Pafather for such comprehensive technical advice. everyone’s between-the-lines concern for health/safety, nobody calling me silly,
and UCSD dad for offering to look out locally. </p>

<p>As of tonight, we’ve rethought it this way: buy a used car in NY State, where my H can bargain magnificently (he;s an ace), then S and Mom drive cross-country together mid-August, then I’ll fly back. I’ve never seen our country. Win-win. Everyone’s happier with this approach.</p>

<p>Keep posting if you wish, but we’re not buying this car. S is right on board with the decision.</p>

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<p>p3t - as you check out other cars, keep checking with your insurance company. They will give a quote on each car you consider and there can be a big difference. They typically rate cars on things like how often they are stolen, repair costs and crash worthiness.</p>

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<p>p3t-happy bargaining to your DH. One of my H’s favorite pastimes is to “torture” car dealers while he “dickers” with them on price. :wink: The best part of this will be the quality time you get with S on the x-country drive. Happy hunting!</p>

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<p>A great resource (and possibly more than you ever really wanted to know) for safety in used cars can be found at [IIHS-HLDI:</a> Crash Testing & Highway Safety](<a href=“http://www.iihs.org%5DIIHS-HLDI:”>http://www.iihs.org). In addition to their crash test ratings ( in a sense limited to comparing how cars would fare in a crash with another of similar weight) also check out the “research and stats” for “iinsurance loss statistics by make and model.” The “medical payment” column gives a comparison of insurance payouts for injury in various models and also designates various time spans, ie. 2004-2006 as well as earlier models. You can also look at the crash test ratings for different model years.</p>

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<p>^^whoa, awesome!!</p>