<p>Give up on it, Neverborn. The Civil War is over and the South lost. You can quit saving your Confederate money; it’s value is never coming back. </p>
<p>A lot of brave Southern soldiers died unfortunately defending an evil and immoral institution. And a lot of brave Union soldiers died to overthrow it. We can all be grateful that Right prevailed and Wrong was defeated.</p>
<p>Coureur is one who doesn’t like to be confronted with facts of history that contradict his long held beliefs. No matter how I throw the atrocities of the North at him, it’s all “the ends justify the means” for him. Hopefully the citizens of Russia, China, Cambodia, Germany, and other countries that have committed atrocities don’t have his attitude in 150 years.</p>
<p>A lot of brave Union soldiers died unfortunately in an unnecessary aggressive war. A lot of brave Confederate soldiers died unfortunately trying to follow the example of our Founding Fathers by seceding from a tyrannical government. Sadly, the country changed irrevocably - proof that good does not always triumph.</p>
<p>Neverborn, I agree with the advice that Coureur gave you: The Civil War is over and trying to fight it again will not do you any good. I await a post from you with citations, not emotional arguments.</p>
<p>MSMDAD and coureur you haven’t yet presented a single shred of evidence. Neverborn has mentioned economic issues, states rights, etc. … Compare coureur’s posts with neverborns and decide which contains more arguments based on emotion.</p>
<p>
Sad, but true. My grandmother found some in her attic, and it’s not even worth much to collectors! :p</p>
<p>
Not quite correct…the Confederates fired on the Union at Fort Sumter (not much left of it, either), starting the war. At least in the Revolutionary War the British fired first. Furthermore, it was idiots like Senator Brooks who inflamed the government- who wants to deal with people like that? You didn’t see Ben Franklin beating Brits over the head with his cane.</p>
<p>W1cked, You prove my point as you, too, are resorting to emotional arguments and name-calling. And where are your shreds of evidence?</p>
<p>Paul Johnson. A History of the American People. HarperPerennial. 1997 Copyright. Pgs432-435 (Causes of Slavery) 435-441 (Rise of Lincoln) 441-446 (Reasons for saving the Union) 446-450 (Election of 1860), 450-460 (Jefferson Davis and why the South Fought)</p>
<p>W1cked, The book that you cite is well-known for its lack of objectivity. It describes the Watergate affair as a witch-hunt against Nixon. A reviewer from Cambridge described it as: “I will first off admit that the book was entertaining and engagingly written, but that the authors right-wing agenda made the reading painfull. Mr. Johnson’s obvious prejudices obscured any accuracies that the text might contain, and renders the book to the ‘feel good about your political bent’ reading list, and not of much value for any true student of history…this book is offensive and hardly what I consider the work of intellectual objectivity.”</p>
<p>Good job! Instead of looking at the information first you criticize the source. I can show you just as many quotations what say the book is balanced…Doesn’t prove **** either way. The point is, you can’t dispute his claims, so you have to undermine the guy’s credibility. Shame on you.</p>
<p>Thank you for your compliment! And who says that I did not look at the information? I find it amusing that you must resort to name-calling, and profanity, denoted by ****, when having a discussion. Lack of vocabulary to express your thoughts? Shame on you!</p>
<p>I find it amusing you cannot contradict my source, so you try to sound witty and change the topic. Do yourself a favor and dont try.</p>
<p>w1cked, BTW, did you notice that one of your previous posts in which you resorted to name-calling was edited by a moderator? You should, again, be ashamed of yourself. I do not wish to contradict your source, Paul Johnson, as it is clearly not worth contradicting. When you have citations from reputable and objective sources that prove your points regarding the Civil War, post them. In the meanwhile, learn how to have discussions without name-calling and profanity.</p>
<p>b/c many college officials are very liberal… it’s an iffy topic</p>
<p>warblersrule: The North invaded the territorial waters of South Carolina by trying to resupply Fort Sumter with ammunition (U.S.S. Star of the West being the ship) - that is an act of war.</p>
<p>MSMDAD: Okay, let’s start with “Lincoln didn’t care about slaves.”</p>
<p>“I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality; and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge DOuglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position. I have never said anything to the contrary.”
Abraham Lincoln
From: “Lincoln’s Reply to Douglas, Ottawa, Illinois, Aug. 21 1858” - Abraham Lincoln: His Speeches and Writings, Roy P. Basler, p. 445</p>
<p>“Free them, and make them politically and socially our equals? My own feelings will not admit of this. We cannot, then, make them equals.”</p>
<p>“When they remind us of their constitutional rights [to own slaves], I acknowledge them, not grudgingly but fully and fairly; and I would give them any legislation for the reclaiming of their fugitives.”
-Same book, “Lincoln’s Reply to Douglas”, p. 444 - arguing FOR the Fugitive Slave Act.</p>
<p>Lincoln also favored Colonization - sending freed slaves back to Africa instead of letting them stay in America: “send them to Liberia, their own native land.”
-Same book, p. 255-256</p>
<p>As to why the South was ****ed if it wasn’t slavery:
“The South has furnished near 3/4 of the entire exports of the country…we have a tariff that protects our manufacturers from thirty to fifty percent, and enables us to consume large quantities of Southern cotton…this operates to compel the South to pay an indirect bounty to our skilled labor, of millions annually.”
-Daily Chicago Times, December 10, 1860</p>
<p>“The chief instigator of the present troubles - South Carolina - have all along been preparing the way for the adoption of free trade…and must be stopped by the closing of the ports by military force.”
-Newark Daily Advertiser , April 2, 1861</p>
<p>Lincoln manipulated the South into firing first - the Confederacy sent peace ambassadors, but Lincoln the dictator REFUSED to acknowledge them. Napoleon III of France also offered to mediate the dispute, but Lincoln refused to even meet him(James Randall, Constitutional Problems under Lincoln, p63-64):
"Lincoln had been plainly warned [by his military advisors] that a ship taking provisions to Fort Sumter would be fired on. Now he was sending the ship, with advance notice to the men who had the guns. He was sending war ships and soldiers as well…If there was going to be a war it would begin over a boat load of salt pork and crackers…not for nothing did Captain Fox remark afterward that it seemed very important to Lincoln that South Carolina “should stand before the civilized world as having fired upon bread.”
Bruce Catton, The Coming Fury, p.297</p>
<p>Some states feared Lincoln’s attitude towards slavery, but slavery was pretty secure: He supported the Fugitive Slave Act and the Dred Scott decision was in. Four slave states: Arkansas, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Virginia, were part of the Union (and voted to STAY in the Union) until Lincoln launched his war for empire.</p>
<p>The Morrill Tariff was the straw that broke the camel’s back, it was raising tariffs on some items up to 250%
Sen. Toombs said that the bill was “Northerners united in a raid against the south.”</p>
<p>Also, the Founding Fathers seceded and recognized the right to secede:
“When a form of government becomes destructive of the ends for which it was established, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new government.”</p>
<p>They were constitutionally sound in seceding, and Lincoln acted like a dictator in response - murdering hundreds of thousands (including civilians through Gen. Sherman), suspending habeas corpus, imprisoning Union legislators, etc.</p>
<p>How’s that, MSMDAD? My question to you is: Can you prove (using the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, and history of the U.S. up to 1860) that the Confederate States had NO right to secede?</p>
<p>who here thinks if stonewall didn’t die the south would’ve won</p>
<p>the north would have won whether the south had stonewall or not.</p>
<p>The north had the infrastructure and nearly unlimited resources to wage the war much longer than the south… The north was very industrialized. The south was agrarian.</p>
<p>The Confederate soldiers you’re focusing your project on are more heroic than Abraham Lincoln will ever be. If the Texas-Kansas basketball weren’t about to start I’d elaborate, but for now, let me recommend Thomas J DiLorenzo’s “The Real Lincoln”</p>
<p>In addition, the North’s policy of kill, maim, loot, rape all directed against civilians was something that the South never conceived of or prepared for.</p>
<p>Anyone here who believes Lincoln fought the Civil War over slave…I have some land I’d like to sell you. Before Lincoln was a President, he was a lawyer; a lawyer who often defended slaveholders and argued that slaves should be returned to their masters (his clients). Before he was a President, he was an orniary politician, one who even voted for a bill that would PERMANENTLY MAKE SLAVERY LEGAL. Lincoln’s platform was centralization of power, not the freeing of the slaves. Take a look at these quotes straight from the horse’s mouth:</p>
<p>“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race”</p>
<p>“If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it”</p>
<p>Its time for all the proud Union supporters to wake up and realize that the Civil War was a dark time in our nation’s history, and that there were no winners, only losers. The tragedy was when he imported the slaves from Africa in the first place. Ending the insitution of slavery as an afterthought during a war in which the winning side suspended habeus corpus, comitted war crimes, and raped and pillaged the citizens of their own country over issues such centralization is not something to be celebrated.</p>
<p>I believe neverborn has won his case…</p>