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<p>Hasn’t met a bigger weasel than herself yet, huh?</p>
<p>Being “nice” in HS is just one part of the big picture, a part that doesn’t last long, and though seemingly important at the time, in the scheme of thing isn’t really future indicator of social successes to come. If you want a nice, strong daughter, be a nice strong woman/mother/mentor. Act in a way you want your daughter to emulate. It’s really not that complicated.</p>
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<p>I agree completely. The “our-group-is-the-best” crap can’t really happen or be that powerful at larger schools.</p>
<p>Since many parents often want smaller schools for their girls, this is something that they may not have thought of.</p>
<p>Don’t you think your kids have to figure out how to deal with this?
Why are you even worried about it? It seems like you’re the insecure ones in school. Encourage them to try new things and meet new people. I’m sure they can find a group with similar interests and values. Who cares about “popular”. Sorry, but you guys need to grow up and move on.You sound like a bunch of middle schoolers.</p>
<p>I wasn’t aware that we were talking about popularity. I thought the OP’s concerns were that her daughter remains a nice, respectable young lady even though her friends have become otherwise.</p>
<p>hello5…because the students are not yet fully formed, because they are still vulnerable, because their good qualities are not reinforced by their surroundings or their peers, because being nice/good is confronted with negative consequences…
need I go on?</p>
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ROTFLMAO…well described, and quite familiar. </p>
<p>The “nice girls finish last” problem certainly applies to guys as well. Like FindAPlace’s son, ours found himself dealing with friends who suddenly went cold and sarcastic on him in 9th grade, and he spent much of the next couple of years freaking out about having no friends. It wasn’t like he was an outcast, he just felt like there were all these tight social groups and he didn’t belong with any of them. But gradually he established a space for himself with his personality and his talents, and now as a senior he has lots of friends and is doing great. </p>
<p>The good part is that we know he is one of the “nice” kids. We wouldn’t necessarily know it from the way he is at home, where he is often an unbearable pill. But we keep having conversations with teachers and other kids where they drop the kinds of hints parents pray for: hints that our kid is the kind who makes the social jungle a little more civilized, to a degree that gets noticed and appreciated. And I think that has to be its own reward to some extent; at least the only thing you get for it in the short term is the kind of respect that mostly flies under the social radar.</p>
<p>So where are all the nasty kids parents. We can’t all have nice kids.</p>
<p>Years ago, there was a “mean girl” blow up at my kids middle school. When all was revealed, it was evident that the moms were largely responsible.</p>
<p>The origin was this (how petty)</p>
<p>Family #1 bought a Yukon XL - standard packaging</p>
<p>Family #2 bought a Yukon XL - luxury packaging when car TV/DVD players were the newest thing.</p>
<p>Mom #1 was very jealous that Family #2 bought “her car” but a better version. That set in motion Mom #1 into being very gossipy about Family #2. Mom #1 and her pals (other moms) became very snippy and gossipy. So, Daughter #1 took the same viciousness to school and bombarded Daughter #2 with ugliness. Daughter #1 got herself a “posse” of mean girls (daughters of the other moms) and off they went wreaking havoc. The teachers were oblivious and in denial (over and over again). Finally, Daughter #2 got ahold of a super nasty long letter written by daughter #1 and the proof was had! The $hit hit the fan! Big time. Teachers were embarrassed that all this had gone on under their nose. The nasty girls’ parents were also exposed.</p>
<p>Envy is such a mean powerful negative force. And it’s in full force in high school. Families are envied for their wealth (often a mirage); kids envied for their talents, good looks, or even boyfriends.</p>
<p>As a mother of a senior, I’m so glad that it’s almost over. One thing about college (beside the size) is the simple fact that the parents haven’t had their measuring sticks out for 4 years!</p>
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<p>Rodney, that is because the nice girls typically aren’t into the quick hook-up, drinking crowd - which is who the boys gravitate to</p>
<p>Luckily my D has a great albeit small group of friends who get along really well and share similiar values. Alas, she gets frustrated at times when away from school and dealing with - as she terms it, the shallow, immature, slutty group of girls in our community. For her, she is happy she no longer goes to the same school as the latter group</p>
<p>It never ends…the gossipy clique-perpetuating high school girls turn into gossipy clique-perpetuating coworkers and gossipy clique-perpetuating mothers of a whole new generation of gossipy-clique perpetuating high school girls.</p>
<p>I also think that girls who, because they’re nice, are very free with their friendship and don’t need to be won over or courted, tend to do worse socially than the mean girls. People won’t worry about slighting a nice girl, because they know she’ll forgive and still be nice. So when there’s a choice, they will cater to the mean girl every time. My girlfirends notice the same thing in marriage. The devoted, considerate, self-sacrificing women are often less appreciated and pampered by their husbands than their --tchy counterparts. The world is messed up! My D used to keep expecting that it would all work out in the end, like a pre-teen Disney movie. Someday everyone will realize how they’re being taken advantage of and mistreated by the mean, gossipy girl and will turn on her. But no, it hasn’t happened yet for D in real high school life.</p>
<p>My girls went through this in middle school. By the end of high school, they had adjusted into new groups. I can’t imagine how painful this would be if it hit during senior year.</p>
<p>oldfort wrote:
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<p>LOL! I don’t have the answer to that, but it reminds me of a story about my older D in middle school. There was a girl who was very mean to D and some of her friends, and D decided to stand up and plan a little revolt – basically got some of the other girls to ignore that girl and give her the message that they were unhappy.
Well, fast forward to an end of year swim meet and me overhearing the mother of that girl telling another mother how her girl’s 8th grade year had been ruined by a “mean girl,” who told all the other girls not to be her friend – I realized through listening she was talking about my daughter, though she didn’t seem to know her name!
Had a long talk with daughter about her methods and motivations.<br>
The truth lay somewhere in the middle.
Neither girl was in the really “popular” crowd.
Oy.</p>
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<p>I wondered about that too.</p>
<p>Lots of interesting comments on this thread. I do think that immaturity plays a role as well as the HS culture of “popularity”. And some of the parents (especially Moms) do push that. The schools tend to give lip service to the idea of “character” while rewarding kids for being popular. I agree that it’s a good thing that HS ends as most (not all) grow out of this.</p>
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Smart point. Nastiness and envy absolutely exist, of course - but they’re exaggerated by one’s point of view. I think I have three strong, “nice” daughters, but there are certain people who wouldn’t hesitate to use the b word to describe them. They don’t suffer fools gladly, and I don’t see why they should. As one who was raised with the constant admonition to “be nice,” and who hears those words in my head every day several decades later - may I say that it’s possible to be too nice? Just because someone dislikes you doesn’t mean they’re envious (which reminds me of one of my favorite expressions: “Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you” 
).</p>
<p>I’ve heard one toxic mom say staggeringly nasty things about other moms and their children. She thinks she’s defending her daughter, who is perpetually being maligned and insulted and psychologically damaged by all the other girls, who are mean and consumed with jealousy because her kid is just so much better in every way. I happened upon a post from her on a discussion board in which she viciously attacked another mom and daughter I know, accusing them of the very things she does all the time - gossiping, insulting, undercutting the competition out of a sense of bitter envy. It was a revelatory moment for me. No one is the bad guy in her own life.</p>
<p>Not attempting to say that the situations described in this thread didn’t happen exactly as stated. Jealousy and meanness are real, and they do play a real part in making many nice girls miserable during adolescence (and way beyond). But when this woman couldn’t recognize herself and actually accused the rival of her own worst qualities, I had to wonder about my own grasp on reality.</p>
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<p>Blinders are on. As long as their kid is popular/on top, they’re happy.</p>
<p>Re the OP, I’m surprised that the problem is surfacing senior year; in my experience both as a parent and as a long-ago girl, the mean phase is at its peak in middle school and by sophomore or junior year some girls are nice again. My daughter was lucky to be in a class that happened to have a fair number of nice/strong/smart girls; with a few glitches around age 12 or 13, they stayed that way through high school. In her particular class at her particular school there was more than one core social group so the nice girls (and some good boys) were able to function in their own social world, which was pretty mainstream but not as toxic as high school sometimes can be.</p>
<p>The stress of college applications may bring out a whole new kind of behavior, but I don’t think it’s quite the same as the classic mean girl stuff. </p>
<p>As far as what to do to raise nice strong girls to become nice strong women, I don’t know. Based on my own experience and what I’ve seen around us, I assume having good role models is the first step, and having a good place to come home to probably helps also. Envy and the occasional materialistic impulse are hard to avoid; I think even the best of us is sometimes guilty of that, but overall kindness and integrity go deeper than those specific instances.</p>
<p>Great post, frazzled. I too was raised to be “nice” at all times, and I hate that (I still hear that voice.) “Nice” is important, but so is “assertive,” and sometimes it’s hard to learn how to be both.</p>
<p>I tried to raise my own D to be loyal to her friends, true to herself, and respectful. Nice is important, too - especially to waiters and flight attendants (I hate it when people yell at flight attendants because their plane is late!) - but it’s only one trait of many.</p>