Raising strong, "nice" daughters

Parent Cafe
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<p>I have two girls. One is the sweetest and most gentle soul. She did deal with the mean girl behavior from time to time through the years, but she got through. I asked her about the OP’s post and D told me that the first semester of senior year is very, very hard because kids are torn between where they have been and where they are going. Between being sick of people and knowing that they will miss them anyway, so she said to tell OP’s D to be patient because a lot of things will change after the first of the year.</p>

<p>D2 is not a nice person. She is definitely not a mean girl in that she doesn’t gossip and she isn’t envious. However, as I’ve posted before, the mom of a classmate began stalking and harassing my D in 7th grade. Since that woman is a neighbor and our kids still go to the same school, we’ve had to deal with some fairly serious ugliness (the mom has a relationship with one of our kids’ AP teachers and went to him causing D trouble, spreading rumors that D has AIDS, etc.) so my D has had to get stronger and learn to set boundaries at an early age. As a result, she is polite, honorable, but she takes no nonsense from anyone because she will not tolerate anyone crossing her personal line in the sand. Last week, a member of her group on a required project blew off her 25% of the project, leaving the others scrambling. The other 3 put plans on hold and busted their butts to get it done. They all grappled with what to do with the girl who blew it off and ultimately my D said, if you had been sick or had an emergency I would have helped you out, but since you just didn’t feel like doing the work and then lied to us, I refuse to allow your name on the project. The other girl’s mom is livid, but sometimes actions have consequences. My D would have been nicer to have looked the other way, but that’s not who she is. It’s possible to be tough and honest without being mean. I think my D does that, but I don’t think I would ever call her nice. She’s a very loyal friend, though, but also honest with her friends. Which is sometimes too much of a good thing! The Carole King song, “Child of Mine” reminds me of her. The part that says “I know you will be honest if you can’t always be kind.” That’s my D.</p>

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<p>As a parent, I think my role in bringing up a strong, caring daughter is to be a role model, AND to validate their feelings. I keep my door open to listen to their issues with their friends. I try not to minimize what they are going through, even though in the back of my mind I am rolling my eyes and know it all should pass. By validating their feelings or try to help them put things more in perspective, it makes my daughters feel like they have the right to feel hurt when treated badly by their friends. </p>

<p>As I have posted above, D1 would try to turn things around (sometimes by getting back at the person) and D2 would tend to walk away. With D1 I need to be careful not to let her go off the deep end (or someone could get hurt). With D2 I need to show her by walking away is not always the best solution, even though it maybe the easiest solution at the time. </p>

<p>I feel it is important to keep our communications open. How strong our daughters are will be continuously tested in HS, college, dating and in marrigage some day. At the end of day, we will always be their strongest supporters. By knowing we are there for them will give them a lot of strength.</p>

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<p>If moms are overheard making snide comments about people (“How ugly was that dress?”" ) and dads are encouraging ruthlessness in sports (“Don’t pass him the ball–he’s terrible!”) and either or both is harsh on their kids (“Your hair is a mess! You think an A- is good enough?!”), it is no surprise their kids wind up like this.</p>

<p>On the other hand, it was very painful when the daughter of good friends of ours, who are lovely people, was horribly nasty to our daughter as a way of showing she belonged in the Queen Bee set. </p>

<p>That girl was later cast out by the Queen Bees. Now, she is studying to be a Special Ed teacher–we wonder if she regrets–or even realizes–hr own behavior.</p>

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<p>My oldest is very nice, too nice, actually, and it caused her some issues in Jr. High and, I think, H.S. But, over the years she’s developed a policy where she very directly tells people if she’s been hurt and gives them another ‘free’ pass. If they do it again, she just kicks them into her outer circle. She used to try to get people to “understand” but she no longer thinks it’s possible. She won’t really stop being friends, but she won’t be close with someone who does the back-stabbing, sneaky, snarky remark thing, anymore. Though, I have to say she could very easily have been bullied her whole life if I had constantly admonished her to “be nice.” Girls get that message from the culture anyway.</p>

<p>For example, in kindergarten, if two boys get into a fight, they will be told they are not allowed to speak or sit together until they make up. If two girls get into a fight, they will be made to sit together UNTIL they can be “nice.” It causes a lot of girls to get the idea that it’s thier problem if someone else is being a jerk. Not the best message, really.</p>

<p>My youngest would not be called “nice” by anyone, including her mother. She is loyal, and she is not a bully, but nobody messes with her and she has been known to intervene in situations where kids have been bullied. She has also taken bullied kids aside and advised them on how to take care of the situation. She’s an athlete and very well-loved, but she’s not “nice.”</p>

<p>One time I got a call from a mother in second grade saying she had done something stupid and I made her go over to the other girls house and apologize and invite the young lady to eat lunch with her every day for a month. The girls are close friends now and the mother and I laugh about it. She says she was nervous to call me, but I’m really glad she did.</p>

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<p>Zoosermom, your daughter is spot on when she describes the first semester of senior year in high school as being torn between where they have been and where they are going. It was very, very hard, even just to watch them go through it. I think the mixed feelings and fears all contribute.</p>

<p>Just tell your nice daughters to hang on, it does get better for most I believe in college. I’ve seen my daughter grow so much in college; she’s just as nice as she’s always been but she’s learned how to separate herself from those who cause her pain or bring negative energy into the picture. She’s always been a really happy kid and she’s learned that she’s happiest when she’s around other happy kids. Learned how to cull out the negativity so to speak I guess and to cull it out much more quickly.</p>

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<p>As a man and the father of a son, I find this thread fascinating; I feel like I’m getting a free gender studies seminar in the cultural ramifications of the word “nice” and the role it plays in the education of girls. At first I’m hearing all these women say “my daughter is not nice” and I’m horrified; how can you talk about your child that way!? But I’m beginning to see that there are different shades of meaning in play here. I hear “nice” and think “friendly, inclusive, respectful, considerate of others’ feelings.” And I wonder, how can anybody not want their kid to be that? But I’m getting the sense that for some of you “nice” means something more like “willing to accept abuse and disrespect without complaint and keep coming back for more.” And I certainly wouldn’t want my son to be “nice” in that sense.</p>

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<p>You’re right, nightchef - “nice” is a loaded word! It CAN mean friendly and compassionate, but sometimes it also carries the connotation of “doormat.” As in “I must subjugate my own hurt and put your feelings above mine.” Of course, no one ever starts out teaching their child to feel/act that way!</p>

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<p>^^^actually, my parents did start out trying to teach their girls just that! (It didn’t work particularly well)</p>

<p>I would like to think that is a thing of the past, but I bet there are still families where that is considered the appropriate attitude for females.</p>

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<p>To me nice means being honest/having ethics and integrity, and treating people decently. Being strong means being more or less true to yourself and your beliefs and standards. But there’s no one size fits all for either of those qualities.</p>

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<p>^^mafool and scout59–it’s about balance, isn’t it? It sounds bad to say that children learn to “subjugate their own hurt and put others’ feelings above their own,” but if you modify that to “keep their own hurt in perspective and treat others’ feelings as equal in importance to their own,” then it sounds like what we all should be teaching our kids. I think the problems come (1) when some kids learn it better than others, and the others learn to take advantage of that; and (2) when girls are expected to learn it better than boys.</p>

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<p>nightchef–one of the biggest compliments either of my girls can give a guy is “he’s a really nice guy.” With a girl, with the same qualities, they’d say, “She’s really friendly.”</p>

<p>The only time I ever hear them refer to nice in regard to a girl is “She’s too nice.” as in she let’s people walk all over her. Or, in reference to my oldest D, “I was too nice. That was a not a good friendship.” </p>

<p>Of course, I’ve rarely heard boys refer to frenemies…so, it’s probably semantic, which is interesting.</p>

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<p>I haven’t had a chance to closely read all the posts on this thread, but it has got me thinking about what “nice” really means. My DD is a junior in HS. She’s helpful and kind with a soft heart for the underdog and the disabled. I’ve seen her get snippy with a teacher (who, frankly, deserved it), but usually gets a “pleasure to have in class” notation on her report card from several teachers each year. The girl can hold her own, but I think she is perceived as funny and “nice” by those who have taken the time to get to know her. The one thing I will say about my DD is that she is not a gossip. I’ve never heard her say a bad word about anyone except her brother :slight_smile: and the above-mentioned teacher. </p>

<p>The person who has suffered most at the hands of the “mean” girls is my DS. He is such an unassuming guy who has both male and female friends who are as “nice” as he is. In his HS years, there were some girls who were just plain nasty to him and others in their class. He has run into this at college, too. He is so befuddled by their nastiness. I can’t really explain to him why these girls take the “nasty” approach to meeting new people except to tell him to move on to the next girl. No reason to waste time with someone who is mean to strangers. I suppose it is just immaturity, but honestly, I’ve met grown women who have lied to me, lied about me, and been quite nasty. Don’t get it. I guess they are so insecure that they see others as a threat to their success. Or, perhaps they see others trying to undermine them as they try to undermine others. It never occurs to them it’s not about them. </p>

<p>“Nice” to our family means someone who is thoughtful, courteous, and respectful. It has nothing to do with being a pushover.</p>

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<p>Being mean or b** to some people has perhaps a lot to do with being intimidating (and maybe popular) in HS, but has zero to do with being strong in the sense of the word that matters in adult life. </p>

<p>I don’t think being ‘popular’ in HS has anything to do with being a leader later in life or even anything to do with being strong in terms of having character, confidence and integrity. </p>

<p>Likewise, there are plenty of very “nice” girls who can defend their interests and ensure they stay in a place of self-respect. And having self-respect has nothing to do with dishing it back, retaliating, or lowering oneself to another’s level. </p>

<p>I know plenty of extremely successful professional women - physicians, professors, politicans, VPs- who are strong and incredibly generous, kind and not remotely engaged in day to day behaviors that would be considered ‘stereotypically’ female (e.g. backstabbing or into drama or gossip). In fact, I think their success is partly attributed to their high emotional intelligence.</p>

<p>My D isn’t in the popular crowd at HS, but couldn’t care less. Never has. Maybe it’s an advantage. She has a wonderful circle of intellectual, kind friends, who have zero drama, aren’t vying for some contest of strength or popularity, and until now at least have been above all that. They are happy, self-confident, joyful. It hasn’t been since 3rd grade that she’s had a story of someone being ‘mean’. </p>

<p>And she goes to an all-girl school, where you’d think it would be a nightmare. But they have been extremely successful at creating a really supportive, positive, and respectful culture.</p>

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<p>Like any personal quality, “niceness” is many shades of gray. My daughter is not a pushover nor a follower by any means but she won’t retaliate and won’t say things to purposely hurt someone and lower herself to the standards of the nasties. She won’t date someone who she considers to be “mean” or hurtful to others. Basically believing in that golden rule… She said the words she heard most often used to describe her in high school were “smart” and “nice”. One of her teachers freshman year of high school gave out silly awards at the end of the year and the award she gave my daughter was “Grace Under Fire”.</p>

<p>She doesn’t like the drama or the divas but she’s empathetic and a good listener and will listen beyond the point that many would have the patience for. As she gets older and busier with real life issues now that she’s a senior in college, her tolerance for listening to drama has gotten shorter but she’s also learned to separate from it gracefully.</p>

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<p>This satire from today’s The Onion is relevant:</p>

<p>Group Of Popular Girls Reduces Nation To Tears</p>

<p>NEW YORK—A group of popular teenage girls viciously insulted the United States Tuesday, causing the populace to break down and cry following assertions that its 300 million citizens are stupid and fat and that everybody hates them.
Enlarge Image Teenagers</p>

<p>Ashley, Courtney, and Marisa find endless new ways to crush the fragile American populace.</p>

<p>The elite clique, which consists of high school sophomores Ashley Powell, Courtney Hughes, and Marisa Reynolds, reportedly preyed on the nation’s insecurities by mocking the way Americans were dressed and proclaiming that every U.S. resident was “a complete loser.”</p>

<p>“Those girls are so cruel,” said Pittsburgh construction worker Joe Miller, wiping away tears from his eyes. “They made all these really mean comments about my weight and the way I smelled, and then one of them, I think it was Courtney, said that the color of my hard hat really brought out the ugliness in my face.”</p>

<p>Added Miller, “I don’t ever want to go back to that construction site!”</p>

<p>Sources confirmed the entire Midwest was filled with self-doubt after the girls ridiculed the region by yawning in an exaggerated manner and declaring that everything its citizens had to say was “bor-ing.”</p>

<p>In addition, the girls’ merciless attacks left the state of Nebraska so mortified that all its residents stayed home the next morning, unable to go about their daily routines for fear of what the teenagers might be telling others about them.
Enlarge Image Brian Williams</p>

<p>Reporting on the fate of a construction worker, Brian Williams warns viewers not to make direct eye contact with the popular 16-year-olds.</p>

<p>The exclusive trio of 16-year-olds was reportedly at its most ruthless while tormenting the nation’s women, upseting millions by spreading malicious rumors that every one of them was a complete slut. Ashley Powell, who publicly stated that they all looked like huge ****ing cows, is believed to be responsible for traumatizing the Eastern Seaboard and leaving all its female residents completely inconsolable.</p>

<p>“They do this every time,” said 51-year-old Portland, ME resident Sandra Thompson, who takes a different route to work each day in order to avoid the mean-spirited clique. “You leave the house thinking you look great. Then they invite you over, smile that little perky smile of theirs, and tell you that your new skirt almost hides your huge ass.”</p>

<p>Social worker Janet Martin, who said the popular teens were only using derision to overcome low self-esteem, sobbed with her hands covering her face after the girls made fun of her low salary, meager benefits, and lack of career-advancement opportunities.</p>

<p>According to sources in his office, Houston mayor Bill White received an anonymous handwritten note from the teenagers last week stating that someone “super hot” had a huge crush him. When White followed the instructions in the message and arrived Saturday at the Willowbrook Mall food court holding a single red rose, he was embarrassed to discover the person waiting for him was Julie, that one fat girl with the braces.</p>

<p>Though an overwhelming majority of the country fears being ostracized by the popular girls, many admitted they wished they could do something, anything, to be noticed by them.</p>

<p>“It’s like they don’t even know I’m alive,” said John Green, 91, of Miami. “I don’t know why I let it bother me. I’ve lived a rich, rewarding life. But they’re so pretty, and their hair is so perfect!”</p>

<p>“Why don’t they like me?” Davis continued. “What did I ever do to them?”</p>

<p>Even President Barack Obama wasn’t spared from the popular teens’ contempt.</p>

<p>“I was working hard on a plan to reduce U.S. oil consumption, and they were just sitting there smirking and pointing at me the whole time,” said Obama, who overheard the girls whispering that he shouldn’t have bailed out the U.S. auto industry without first calling for stronger provisions to improve fuel efficiency. “But that’s how they operate. They find one little flaw in your energy policy and relentlessly make fun of you for it.”</p>

<p>“They’re probably laughing at me right now,” Obama added. “I hate those girls!”</p>

<p>At press time, the group of girls reiterated its long-held stance that no one in the nation has any friends. When asked for further comment, the teenagers pointed at reporters, giggled, and said, “Whatever.”</p>

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<p>It sounds like a convincing number of posters here have stated or admitted that the female of the species has a tendency to backstab, gossip, be catty, etc., so much so that it even interferes with her professional life. If true, how safe is will the world be when it is inevitably taken over by that gender? What will men do – develop a more potent viagra to try to at least preserve SOME form of virility?!</p>

<p>Finally, is this a cultural thing – or has it always (and in every society) been the general comportment of the female. If so, why, oh why, given the incalculable wealth of intelligence that the female obviously possesses, has she not been able to transcend this tendency, this…Achilles heel, if you will, so that she can, finally, put to rest that most crippling and damning reputation she apparently earned as far back as, well, the Garden of Eden?</p>

<p>What is to be done?..woe is me…</p>

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<p>yabeyabe2 - My post paled next to yours! LOL</p>

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<p>The silence tells me a plot is a foot… (but a foot is never a plot!)</p>

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<p>I have always had a pet peeve with the word “nice”. I avoided using it while raising my D–I never said “Be nice”, during playground squabbles because the word seems to me more about social veneer than inner qualities. It was pretty challenging coming up with something else, believe me. It’s interesting that when people define “nice” here, they describe qualities (caring, consideration, personal integrity) that go far beyond “niceness”. It’s also interesting that in some posts, the qualities that are contrasted with being nice are being mean and slutty. </p>

<p>I wanted to raise a strong, serious, loving, considerate and kind D, but I never wanted to raise a nice girl. Girls are taught to put others first, sometimes to a fault. It’s a fine line between nice and doormat. It’s the flip side of calling a girl a b***h because she is assertive and stands up for herself.</p>

<p>Anyway… it’s a hard road to navigate. It’s certainly not confined to teen-aged girls either! My D had many trying times in middle and HS, and did go through some times when she felt friendless, but ultimately, she found a small group of girlfriends that she could count on to be true friends. I’m sure the same will happen for the OP’s D. Eventually, people always gravitate to the good ones (after they tire of drama).</p>

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<p>This thread has taken an interesting turn. When I previously posted and described D and her friends as “nice” I was thinking that they are friendly, considerate and respectful of others. That they do not start rumors, make fun of others, and try to stir up drama. However in no way are they pushovers and they will certainly stand up for themselves and for others. Having a backbone does not preclude being “nice”.</p>