<p>lesdiablesbleus, none of my doctors went to HYPSM. Does that mean they are shams? Of course not. They are among the best in the region (awards, accolades, honorary memberships, etc.). I choose my doctors based on EXPERIENCE and EXCELLENCE (referrals).</p>
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<p>I think you just answered your own question: they’re impressing the unsophisticated, and you admit that it works. The fact is, most people are unsophisticated, at least on medical matters. Let’s be perfectly honest: most regular people don’t really know where the best plastic surgery or LASIK training is to be obtained. </p>
<p>Pizzagirl, I think you’re perennially confused about the nature of this thread. This thread is about lay prestige. You can discuss how lay prestige is different from prestige amongst experts, and perhaps how laymen are too impressed with certain brand names. But that’s an entirely different discussion. What we’re talking about is which schools have lay prestige.</p>
<p>I’ll re-invoke the example of my Turkish friend, who should be finishing grad school at Harvard shortly. He freely admits that Harvard is not the best program in his particular discipline (which shall remain unnamed) and that he was admitted to others that were better. But he doesn’t really care, because he doesn’t really intend to take a job in his discipline at all (at least not for long). What he actually intends is to go back to Turkey and either work for a government ministry or run for political office. Let’s face it: voters in Turkey (or, heck, voters in the US) don’t really know what the best grad programs are. All they’re going to recognize is the Harvard brand name. </p>
<p>Or, again, allow me to invoke the example of Barack Obama himself. His initial claim to fame was becoming the first black President of the Harvard Law Review, an accomplishment which garnered nationwide media attention and led to a book contract and 5-figure advance. If he had been the first black President of the law review at, say, the Western New England School of Law, nobody would have really cared and he certainly would not have been offered a book advance. The book publisher determined that his writings would garner a profitable audience because he came from Harvard. </p>
<p>Now, you may argue that that’s not fair, and to that, I would agree. It is indeed not fair that certain schools have stronger lay prestige than others. But fair or not fair, that’s how it is.</p>
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<p>Wait a minute now, so you say that you agree with me that most schools do not offer the type of education that you (and I) support, and then you accuse me of being cynical? I don’t think I’m any more cynical than you are. Again, you agreed with me that most schools are not offering and most students are not particularly interested in obtaining such an education. </p>
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<p>Well, I’m not entirely sure that Chicago truly supports your point. Let’s face it: Chicago is also an important gateway towards the finance and consulting jobs that had been discussed previously. Moreover, Chicago, as you said, is a major research university where the faculty are understandably more incentivized to spend time on their research than in actually caring about the quality of the teaching they provide. The tenure process at any major research university - Chicago included - is heavily weighted towards research. </p>
<p>But in any case, you also agree that those schools are exceptions. The truth is, most students are attracted to the high prestige schools such as HYPSM (especially H). Harvard beats every school in terms of cross-admits. </p>
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<p>Hey, don’t get me wrong. I’m not exactly a fan of the rush towards banking and consulting, and indeed I suspect that that rush has contributed to the fragility of the national economy and the coarsening of the culture of higher education.</p>
<p>But what can I say? Consulting and finance are indeed highly attractive professions to college graduates nowadays and it would be simply false to assert otherwise. Whether we like it or not, those jobs do seem to offer higher pay, higher prestige, and a faster track towards promotion than do other jobs. Again, I think the real problem is that those other jobs should be improved. For example, I find it sad and distressing that so many of the best engineering students from MIT - arguably the best engineering talent in the country - don’t really intend to actually work as engineers, but rather desire to work as consultants and finance. Yet the fact remains that nearly half of all MIT graduates who enter the workforce take jobs in those professions. The way to solve this problem is for engineering companies to offer better pay and better promotion tracks, but they don’t want to do so. Hence, it is entirely rational, if sad, for MIT students to prefer to choose other careers.</p>
<p>*Students at </p>
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<p>Sure, perhaps that’s true, but that doesn’t answer the question of why those particular professions that seem to hire so many HYP graduates also seem to be precisely the ones that pay so well. Or put another way, why can’t the ‘non-elite’ jobs pay better? </p>
<p>It’s obviously not true that HYP graduates never work in other industries. For example, certain tech firms such as Facebook are crawling with Harvard graduates, which is unsurprising as the site itself was founded on the Harvard campus. Microsoft, Apple, and Google are also packed with HYP graduates. Clearly none of these firms are involved with finance/consulting/law/medicine. Nevertheless, they’re among the highest-prestige and highest-paying tech firms in the country. There are plenty of tech firms that don’t pay particularly well and are unprestigious and consequently do not attract too many HYP students.</p>
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<p>Nobody is saying that they are in fact better doctors. But the point is that the perception exists. Perception is due to marketing and lay prestige. </p>
<p>Again, take a gander at this plastic surgeon who touts himself as “Harvard-educated”. What’s interesting is that he didn’t attend Harvard Medical School, nor was he trained in a Harvard-affiliated residency or fellowship. His Harvard connection is solely from his undergraduate degree. That’s how he can claim to be ‘Harvard-educated’. Not only that, but he marks his Harvard connection (and his magna cum laude honors) in boldface. His actual medical education and training is not bolded; only his Harvard credentials are bolded. </p>
<p>[Pittsburgh</a> Plastic Surgeon Dr. Chiu](<a href=“http://www.todayscosmeticsurgery.com/index.cfm/PageID/3478]Pittsburgh”>Liquid Facelift in Pittsburgh, PA | Dr. Robert Chiu)</p>
<p>Whether we like it or not, that’s how marketing works. He’s trying to attract a plastic surgery clientele, and he believes that his Harvard credentials are a way to do it. He’s not touting himself as an “Albert Einstein-educated” or “UPMC-educated” doctor. He’s touting himself as a “Harvard-educated” doctor and if that attracts clientele, then it was a successful strategy. If he thought that touting his actual medical credentials was a better marketing strategy, then he would have boldfaced those credentials. </p>
<p>I’ll give you an example from Hollywood. The Bourne film trilogy, as excellent as they are, basically have nothing to do with the original Robert Ludlum book series apart from the notion of a government assassin stricken with amnesia. No confrontation with Carlos the Jackal. Timeline has been moved to the present day, setting has been moved from Asia to Europe. The backstory behind Bourne has been completely rewritten. But at the end of the day, what matters is that the film trilogy made a billion dollars total worldwide, and if the established brand name of the Bourne book series helped in that regard, then that was a successful marketing strategy.</p>
<p>Another “Harvard-educated” doctor:</p>
<p>(Note, the Harvard connection is simply Harvard undergrad; you actually have to scroll down and dig into the website to find out where she actually went to med school and residency.) </p>
<p>[Dr</a>. Angela Nahl - LASIK Surgery in San Diego, California, at Nahl Custom Vision](<a href=“http://www.allaboutvision.com/lasik-surgeons/nahl-san-diego.htm]Dr”>http://www.allaboutvision.com/lasik-surgeons/nahl-san-diego.htm)</p>
<p>A “Harvard-educated” Miami plastic surgeon:</p>
<p>[Board</a> Certified Plastic Surgeon Pat Pazmino, MD, FACS of Miami, Florida](<a href=“http://www.miamiaesthetic.com/]Board”>http://www.miamiaesthetic.com/)</p>
<p>Here’s a law firm asking (in a tacky manner): “Wouldn’t you rather hire a Harvard-educated lawyer who won a record $5.3 million verdict?” Although, in fairness, one of the lawyers (of the 3 in the firm) did indeed graduate from Harvard Law. </p>
<p>[Turgeon</a> & Associates Personal Injury Lawyers - Personal Injury Law is all we do.](<a href=“http://www.turgeonlawfirm.com/]Turgeon”>http://www.turgeonlawfirm.com/)</p>
<p>What can I say? That’s how marketing works. As long as people, perhaps the unsophisticated, are continually drawn to the Harvard brand name, then those with a Harvard connection will continue to leverage it.</p>
<p>^^^^^</p>
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<p>My thoughts exactly, so which is why it is “Harvard” then the rest… I don’t ever see someone ‘bragging’ they went to YPSM or any other school. H is a special case and anyone who feels that YPSM or YPS or Y (or whatever) is on the same level is delusional. Yes, Y is closest but not on the same level.</p>
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<p>Well, actually, they do:</p>
<p>“The Stanford-educated, board-certified plastic surgeon”</p>
<p>[Palo</a> Alto Plastic Surgeon, Palo Alto Plastic Surgery](<a href=“http://www.struckmd.com/webpages/aboutdrstruck.htm]Palo”>http://www.struckmd.com/webpages/aboutdrstruck.htm)</p>
<p>"Our Medical Director, Dr. Lloyd Krieger, is Stanford educated "</p>
<p>[LA</a> Plastic Surgery](<a href=“http://www.rodeodriveplasticsurgery.us/]LA”>http://www.rodeodriveplasticsurgery.us/)</p>
<p>“As the only Stanford-trained plastic surgeon in the area, Dr. Mark Mason is in the best position to help you reach your potential”</p>
<p>[Southlake</a> Plastic Surgery - Mark Mason breast augmentation liposuction facelift Dallas Fort Worth Southlake Grapevine Texas](<a href=“http://www.southlakeplasticsurgery.com/]Southlake”>http://www.southlakeplasticsurgery.com/)</p>
<p>“Our MIT educated Engineers, Consultants and Level A DO-178B & DO-254 DER’s average 25 years experience in Airborne Electronic Hardware and Software Development, Systems and Quality Engineering.”</p>
<p>[Fast</a> DO-178B & DO-254 Compliance – Templates, Checklists & Tools](<a href=“http://www.faaconsultants.com/]Fast”>http://www.faaconsultants.com/)</p>
<p>“Our MIT educated team has over 25 years of engineering experience and has developed software that is in use by millions of people every day.”</p>
<p>[JPG</a> Consulting, Inc.](<a href=“http://www.jgriep.com/80.html]JPG”>http://www.jgriep.com/80.html)</p>
<p>Yet I don’t think too many businesses tout that their employees are, say, “Southeast Missouri State-educated” in order to attract clientele. Not to be overly harsh, but that doesn’t exactly seem to be a powerful marketing draw.</p>
<p>Now, granted, perhaps that clientele is unsophisticated. Maybe they don’t know any better. But even if that was true, so what? The money of unsophisticated people is just as green as anybody else’s. If your Harvard (or YPSM) background can be marketed to attract clients, why wouldn’t you leverage it?</p>
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<p>No one is disputing that H is a bigger brand name than Y, P, S or M. I am just not entirely convinced that it is a difference in kind as well as a difference in degree, but whatever. You’re the one deluding yourself if you think that Y, P, S and M are not big brand names in their own right.</p>
<p>By the way, was it really necessary to make the same point twice on the same page of the same thread? Are you that desperate to seek the affirmation and attention of anonymous CC posters? For what are basically derivative ideas at best?</p>
<p>Being the generous guy that I am, let me give you what a dose of what you need: “Good job, trollnyc! You’ve been a very good ■■■■■!”</p>
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<p>Thanks, sakky. I am going to copy and paste this for other threads…</p>
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<p>Neither does lesdiablesbleus…</p>
<p>Chicago</p>
<ol>
<li>Harvard
2-20. all debatable</li>
</ol>
<p>That was easy.</p>
<p>^^^ You may be right. All Debatable is a big name school! </p>
<p>Thanks for your thoughtful contributions…</p>
<p>“No, but there may be a posteriori reasons”</p>
<p>You definiely want your proctologist to be competent for a posteriori reasons.</p>
<p>“I still don’t get why people continue to group Harvard along with other schools if this conversation is about prestige!? Harvard belongs in its own group but yet some people still feel the need to have the others “tag” along… Who makes up these arbitrary groups?”</p>
<p>I agree 100%. Harvard is way ahead of the pack…even Yale and Princeton aren’t close for the true man on the street. And MIT is close only among those who subscribed to Popular Mechanics or Popular Science as kids. I seem to be the lone voice here who doesn’t think Stanford is even close to the rest. If you asked the Sanford applicants from east of the Mississippi the main reason they applied to Stanford, about 80% would say “No snow!”</p>
<p>Easy on Pizzagirl… I think she’s one of the most rational people on CollegeConfidential, even though I frequently disagree with her.</p>
<ol>
<li>Harvard/Yale</li>
<li>MIT</li>
<li>Princeton</li>
<li>Notre Dame</li>
<li>Duke</li>
<li>Emory/Rice/Vanderbilt</li>
<li>Brown/Dartmouth/Columbia</li>
<li>Johns Hopkins</li>
<li>CalTech/Stanford</li>
<li>Penn/Cornell/Chicago</li>
<li>Northwestern/WashU</li>
</ol>
<p>I live in Florida. This is definitely not my ranking, but it’s fairly accurate for my area. Furthermore, directly after H/Y would come UF. People where I live have usually heard of schools that have a strong sports focus, like Duke or Notre Dame. Most of them are relatively ignorant of the Ivies other than HYP and have never heard of places like Caltech/Stanford. I constantly have to explain that Dartmouth is in New Hampshire and Brown is in Rhode Island.</p>
<p>“have never heard of places like Caltech/Stanford”</p>
<p>AH HAAA!!!</p>
<p>Providence, Rhode Island</p>
<p>Brown
Harvard
Cornell
MIT
Yale
Princeton
Duke
Stanford
Notre Dame
Columbia/Dartmouth
Johns Hopkins
No one else knows or cares about the rest.</p>
<p>I’m serious. It’s quite sad. But then again, over 75% of the community doesn’t hold a college degree, so you can’t really blame them.</p>
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<p>I imagine most SANford applicants would not have very compelling reasons for applying to STANford…</p>