Rant thread-- I Mean Really?

Parent Cafe
1

<p>My D2 was just fired from her job yesterday. She worked for a nonprofit that she believed in for all of their causes. She worked there, as an assistant director, for 6 months, working 6 days a week for an average 72- 80 hours/ wk. for $24,000/yr. She worked Memorial Day and the Fourth of July. Really?</p>

<p>It was not easy to get the job. It required a 4 yr degree and 2 interviews and a written analysis about a current issue. It seemed like a serious professional job. She worked with graduates from Tufts, Brown, Amherst, Cornell, Harvard, Bucknell.</p>

<p>But what it all really amounted to was canvassing to get money. So it was sales. That’s it. Really.</p>

<p>She did research the company before taking the job. She also connected with some alumn that had worked for the org. None told her to stay away, just that it “wasn’t for them.” She knew some internet posts were negative. But she really believed in the causes and wanted a professional job. </p>

<p>So although she was praised for much of her work, she did not collect $200 every night. Period.</p>

<p>This type of job has been discribed as " a liberal sweatshop,". </p>

<p>So RANT away please!</p>

2

<p>

The $24,000/yr salary should have been a red flag. Think of it as dues: an opportunity for her to put an impressive-looking experience on her resume to leverage that real job. Good luck to her!</p>

3

<p>Sounds like she’s better off not working for that firm and will be better prepared to avoid similar situations in the future. Sorry she’s had to learn this the hard way and that no one warned her about the fund-raising aspect that seemed to be the hidden major focus of this job. I would not be able to tolerate a job that was mainly fundraising.</p>

4

<p>I’m sorry things haven’t worked out for your daughter.</p>

<p>My son worked for a canvassing org. for a couple of years when he was in his early 20’s – it was during his “between schools” phase after he dropped out of college #1 and before he transferred to college #2. He didn’t have a college degree, obviously, but was an assistant director and hiring and managing many who did. He often had to fire people. It wasn’t fun. But the name of the game was fundraising, and if they couldn’t make quota then they were a drain on the payroll. </p>

<p>My son did well and it was his own decision to quit after 2 years, mostly due to burnout. He still went back several times to essentially “temp” for the same organization-- so he’d work a few days here and there to earn a few dollars.</p>

<p>The experience he got from that job is the best thing that ever happened to him. He started out as an undisciplined and introverted, nerdy kid who messed up in college because of lack of follow through and a lot of missed classes and assignments – and turned into a confident and articulate leader, comfortable with managing staffs of up to 40 workers, able to plan out assignments, handle payroll, lead and motivate his teams. And yeah, he was pretty darn good at the fundraising part. But the experience that really helped him was all the managerial/organizational and communications stuff. </p>

<p>The experience from that job was a direct lead-in to future jobs. It gave him experiences he could write about, and all sorts of networking connections.</p>

<p>So I look at it historically as a paid internship – it was not designated “internship” but the benefit was the learning experience, not the pay. </p>

<p>My son does not like to do fundraising and does not want to do it as a career. But in the nonprofit world, fundraising is essential – these agencies depend on donor dollars to operate. </p>

<p>Canvassing is hard work and definitely not for everyone. It’s not something that I would be able to do. One time a young man who worked for the same outfit that had employed my son came canvassing in our neighborhood. I gave him $20 and about 2 hours later when I went out to walk the dog, I saw that he was still in the neighborhood, looking rather downcast. It was starting to get dark and he told me he was still short his quota – I asked him what he needed - it was another $20, maybe $40. I gave it to him. He was very grateful, but I just thought of all of the times it might have been my son knocking on doors. </p>

<p>I agree with you that canvassing/fundraising =sales. That’s why I never worried about my son’s ability to support himself once I saw how well he did at that job, I knew he had skills that would transfer to any business. Lots of people earn their livings from sales. And plenty have quotas they need to meet to keep their jobs. So it can be tough. </p>

<p>I think that your daughter should think about what parts of her work she liked and was good at, and what she didn’t like – and use that to guide her in developing skills and looking for her next job. My son has had volunteer recruitment jobs, and I think he really enjoyed those – so my impression is that he liked the working-with-people part of the canvassing job the best. </p>

5

<p>The "Walmart " of non-profits?
I worked for WASHPIRG for one day a long time ago. Look for an organization that does something more than canvassing.
A company that allows unionizing is a place to start.
<a href=“Public Interests, Private Tactics - City on a Hill Press”>http://www.cityonahillpress.com/2012/05/31/public-interests-private-tactics/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>My D has worked as a canvasser (senior field manager) for quite a few years. She has a degree from a good college, but likes this. She believes strongly in the cause and sees the educational/advocating side of what she does as the reason for being out there, though the canvassing for money makes it possible. She’s very good at it, and makes more than your D did, working many less hours, and certainly not on holidays. (not meant as a knock on your D, but as a comment on the differences between how canvassing organizations work, and the differences in their effectiveness and efficiency.)</p>

<p>My S worked at it summers while in college and for a couple years when he dropped out of college until he recently went back and got his degree. He did not enjoy it as much as D does. However, as Calmom says, it served as a great paid internship and was a huge asset when he interviewed for the professional, non-sales type of job he has now.</p>

<p>I’m surprised that a degree was necessary; it’s not where D works. And I’m surprised by the hours. Also, the designation as “assistant director”. D’s office has a canvass director who runs the show, but he doesn’t canvass. There are field managers, who do all kinds of skill-building leadership things while also canvassing.</p>

<p>As Calmom says, it’s not for me. But I’m impressed by those who do well at it.</p>

7

<p>??</p>

<p>Was she “fired” or laid-off? big difference. If laid-off, can’t she collect unemployment? if so, she needs to file ASAP.</p>

<p>Was she let go because she wasn’t bringing in $200 a day? Are they cold-calling people?</p>

8

<p>If they did not fire her for misconduct, she should also be eligible for unemployment.</p>

9

<p>I don’t know if your D checked out this company at this website glassdoor before she took the job. On the website (present and formal) employees give reviews about the company, and applicants also share interview questions. Not all postings are accurate, but one could get a fairly good sense what the company is like and how happy employees are in general. </p>

<p>I generally like to follow the money when it comes to jobs (careers). One gets more meaning work when employer needs to pay more for your time. 24K salary should be a red flag for your D2. If she stayed at the company, it wasn’t likely her salary would be doubled (48K) next year. How long did she plan on working at that kind of salary? Her older sister is working at an IB, she would certainly understand time is money. Maybe D1 should have a discussion with her younger sister.</p>

<p>I am very sorry your D got fired. No matter what the circumstance was, I am sure she felt rejected and humiliated. Being there, done that. Tell her to take the experience and get a better job. This could be the best thing that happened to her. Send her lots of love and ice cream. </p>

10

<p>separate from what happened in this situation…many young folk who head off to work for a charity or non profits etc…quickly find out that they are a business and the cause is secondary at best. the people running them often times are immoral, dishonest, and looking out only for themselves. selling and or promoting the cause is the source of income and power for the those at the top of structure. the rest of the people are seen as naive sources of cheap or free labor. when people catch on they leave and there is always a new batch to fill their shoes. (very sad but true)</p>

11

<p>The red flag for me is the word nonprofit. Unless a nonprofit is established, i.e., has a list of go-to donors, then upwards of 70% of its time and energy per manpower hour is spent on raising money. Of the many expense sheets for nonprofits I have seen, only the top 10 - 15% of the people in a nonprofit organization actually do something directly related to the cause. The rest are raising money to keep the lights on. Your daughter is better off. </p>

<p>Not all $24K jobs are red flaggers or time-based, especially if the company has to be accountable to actual consumers. I authorized a couple presidents to have $22k personal assistants, which were to die for positions because those assistants were truly right-hand people. They learned more about running a company in 1 or 2 years than most managers with 10 years experience - all because they really learned the big picture and how each gear in the organization revolved to mesh with the other. (Note: These positions were in addition to their executive assistants and other support people)</p>

<p>You get a lot of info about a job based on what kind of NDA you are asked to sign,if any. The personal assistant jobs have NDAs that are in perpetuity. Just do serious research and some of the best experience jobs may not be the highest paying, but you learn a lot more than being limited to the same actions at the same desk.</p>

12

<p>Getting fired hurts. Getting fired wrongfully hurts even more. Deal with the pain and then move on. If you don’t have a job, your full time job is finding a job. Seek unemployment compensation. The same agency that provides unemployment compensation should also provide ample resources for finding the next job. There is a rainbow waiting for your daughter, she just has to find it.</p>

13

<p>Any job where you have to personally contact the public and live or die on making figures is torture for some of us. I’ve done it where refusals didn’t count against me, and did a lot better even though I was dealing with more difficult cases. The desperation people start to experience when they are losing the “sale” is awful.</p>

<p>Just consider the infamous Comcast call.</p>

<p>I would never do it again.</p>

14

<p>Misunderstanding the real metrics of your performance is a good mistake to make early instead of later in your career. She should now be more aware and inquire about how her performance is being measured. I made a similar mistake when I was starting out. Had a job at an exercise studio that I thought was an instructors job. That is what they called it. Turned out it was really a sales job and I got let go for not closing enough sales. I definitely learned to ask more about all of the job expectations. It wasn’t the right job for her - she’ll find the right one.</p>

15

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<p>Losing a job for failure to meet quota is not a “wrongful” termination, assuming that the quota is one of the job expectations. Most employment is “at will”, which means that employers can fire or lay off employees for just about any reason or no reason at all – it only becomes wrongful when there is a specific violation of law or contract. For example, getting fired for refusing to have sex with the boss is “wrongful”… getting fired because the employer isn’t satisfied with the quality of job performance is painful, but it is legal. At least with quota-based evaluation, the metrics are clear. </p>

<p>One of the benefits that my son got from his experience is that he learned to look for and ask whether there are expected quotas when applying for any sort of job where that might be a possibility. Any sort of sales or marketing job could come with that expectation - or a quota could also be tied to productivity level. It is stressful and not always something that the employee can control – but nonetheless it can and often is a legitimate part of the job.</p>

<p>I’d note that if the fundraising quota is $200 per day, it doesn’t mean that the person is let go after one bad day. It’s more like a consistent pattern over a period of weeks. I don’t think my son had a personal quota when he was an assistant director, but the offices he ran probably had quotas-- although sometimes the goal was something other than fund-raising, such as with petition drives… My son actually turned down the offer of the assistant director’s position the first couple of times he was offered it, because he could make more money as a canvasser as canvassers got a larger commission. The directors got salaries, but commission level was much lower. So he had a choice between a job where the pay was almost entirely commission-based as a canvasser, or a salaried position with the potential of a small performance bonus. They kept nudging him to take the promotion until he acquiesced - I’ve always thought that part of the reason they were in such a hurry to get my 20-year-old college drop out son into a salaried position was that he was probably making too much with the commission-based pay. </p>

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<p>So are we using “canvassing” to mean what I would call “cold-calling”? I always thought of that term in connection with surveys, rather than soliciting contributions. </p>

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<p>I would say it’s like cold calling, but usually in person. I work at a non-profit, in development, in a busy downtown area. I joke that leaving the office in the middle of the day is like walking through a gauntlet of canvassers asking for money. I’ve considered bring our donation forms out with me (I don’t because I know it can be a tough and thankless job, and they don’t need me to be snarky about it, but it’s really annoying to have to either stop and politely explain why I’m not donating or flat out ignore people multiple times a day, sometimes when I’m rushing out for a work errand).</p>

<p>I do think that being successful at that kind of work takes a certain personality and a thick skin. My work in development is much more behind the scenes, but we have someone in our department with a sales background is very good at asking for money. I wouldn’t want the direct ask type job. I also think that pay is pretty low even for entry-level non-profit jobs (as is the expectation that someone at that pay level right out of college be expected to work those types of hours)… Best of luck to your daughter in moving on to a better opportunity. What type of work does she want to be doing?</p>

18

<p>^^I agree, i have a couple friends who have successfully been in fund development for non-profits for decades. But it does take a certain personality. For the OP it’s just a bump in the road, and she should definitely file for unemployment this week. If she likes that particular cause, perhaps she can find parallel organizations that need someone not in development or fund-raising although one organization can be very different from another organization. I would be leery of any organization that sets quotas for cold-calling for donations, but that’s just me.</p>

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<p>Re post #9 – mykids have worked for many nonprofits over the years and have always worked with well-meaning and dedicated people, who were strongly committed to the causes they represented. It’s fairly easyto check the bona fides of a charity and to get a picture of how their money is spent through resources like Guidestar. And the nonprofit world goes far beyond organizations whose primary mission is fundraising. In fact, none of the post-college work my kids have done really fit that category.</p>

<p>I think the problem that the OP’s daughter encountered is that, outside of fundraising, there are not a whole lot of positions available for low-skilled workers. Instead, it is more typical that the operation of the nonprofit will depend on people with the educational credentials to fill niche roles, some administrative staff … and then fundraising. The niche roles depend on the organization’s mission.</p>

<p>My d. had good basic office skills and lots of work experience, so she was able to easily find work on the administrative end. My son’s experience from the canvassing helped him develop the skills that enable him to qualify for communications & outreach jobs. But both kids have recognized the limits for growth in those areas and have gone on to seek graduate degrees (MPA’s). </p>

<p>If OP’s daughter wants to continue with nonprofit work, graduate school might be a logical next step. That’s what my son did after being laid off from a much higher nonprofit position. My daughter is on a nonprofit management track for her MPA. Both my kids have reported that most of their course-work is very practically oriented. </p>

<p>My d. also considered an MSW or MPH. Depending on a person’s inclinations, there are all sorts of professional credentials and degrees that could lead to great careers with nonprofits. I mean,… I wish my kids could afford law school, plenty of nonprofit agencies that hire lawyer. (But high debt load is not a good plan in the nonprofit realm – there are some opportunities for loan forgiveness, but my son has referred to those programs as “indentured servitude”)</p>

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<p>Canvassing can be phone-based, but I think the term is more likely to be used to apply to direct contact with the public, either through door-to-door solicitations or at public places, such as setting up a booth or working the crowd at a street fair. </p>

<p>One of the skills my son gained from the door-to-door work is that he really got to know characteristics of a lot of different neighborhoods, both in terms of geography and demographics. </p>

<p>

I wouldn’t consider it “cold-calling” -most of the fundraising is targeted. The canvassers will be sent to neighborhoods which have a record of having positive results in the past; or they will be at events where they are likely to find a receptive crowd, such as sending canvassers to raise money for an HIV/AIDS charity at a gay pride event. Phone-based fund-raising works from targeted lists, such as calling college alums to raise money for the alumni association, or calling registered Democrats to raise money for liberal causes and calling registered Republicans to raise funds for conservative causes. I mean, I get calls from Planned Parenthood but never from Right to LIfe groups - they pretty much know where I stand before they call. If you donate to cause A, then that cause may share its mailing list with other, similar organizations. I got on Planned Parenthood’s radar because I gave money to a door-to-door canvasser raising funds for NARAL. </p>