Rape, Sexual Assault, and Drug Use in Greek Life (the "Cornell 7" specifically, but also generally)

Parents Forum
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In the texts on the early days after the events, Doe has a friendly tone with the frat members and presumably hadn’t seen the screenshots from group chat. NBC News reports the group chat screenshot was provided anonymously 3 days after campus alert email, as quoted below. This was in November, weeks after the events, after Doe reported to campus police. Doe’s attorney and Title IX investigators obtained the screenshot from campus police.

" The tips to Cornell University police started coming in about 15 minutes after the Ivy League school emailed students in November 2024 that a woman had reported being sexually assaulted by several men at a fraternity house.

One caller gave campus police the names of men she believed were connected to what happened, according to logs in the hundreds of pages of Title IX records NBC News reviewed. Another directed investigators to a fraternity group chat. Two women who had been at the Chi Phi house that October evening claimed that fraternity brothers had assured them the incident was consensual — and later asked one of them not to talk about it.

Then, three days after the alert, police received an anonymous email with one of the most vivid pieces of evidence in a case that has reignited a national conversation about consent and sexual assault: a screen recording of a Snapchat conversation among Chi Phi members from that night, where one advertised “free p----y” in an upstairs bedroom."

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Honestly, I don’t care if people choose publicly identify those on the text chain, or not. But I do wonder why there seems to be more concern about the potential reputational damage to bunch of Ivy League frat boys than about the culture of secrecy and intimidation that allows and even encourages rape and sexual assault in fraternity houses.

Maybe if there were reputational consequences for associating with scumbags, being on text chains with scumbags, and doing nothing (except damage control) when one’s scumbag “brothers” chat about their scumbagery, some might be more motivated to break the code of silence.

Guilty of what? I am not talking about criminal culpability. I think sometimes consequences for our actions extend beyond criminal culpability. I don’t see why those on the chat deserve a veil of secrecy. They aren’t the victims here.

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I’m guessing that because this is Cornell, there are probably names on that frat chat list that have ties to prominent families (we already know that one of the original “7” is the son of a high-ranking official in Korea) and as such, there are likely a lot of financial and legal resources available, as well as high incentives, to keep certain names out of the mouths of the press.

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People might want to review the infamous Columbia Mattress Girl case before jumping to conclusions. Ann Coulter on X: "Mattress Girl, the Columbia student who carried a mattress around campus for a year, got her name and photo on the NYT front page without a scintilla of doubt. Why the certainty? The accused was a White male. Then her texts to him came out, and Columbia settled with him." / X

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Not sure how ridiculously false and misleading recollections by Ann Coulter help clarify things. Care to clarify?

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WaPo, CNN, Marie Claire etc have articles explaining the same if you don’t like this source.

“Columbia will continue to review and update its policies toward ensuring that every student – accuser and accused, including those like Paul who are found not responsible – is treated respectfully and as a full member of the Columbia community.”

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Really? I’d like to see the articles backing up Coulter’s claims that the messages didn’t come out until “years later” or that “the University tortured” the accused student, kept him from attending classes, graduation, etc. Even your post indicates that he was “found not responsible” and I don’t believe any disciplinary action was taken. I’d also like to see the articles indicating she was believed “without a scintilla of doubt” or that the reason she was believed was because “the accused was a white male.” Ridiculous race and gender baiting by Coulter.

If articles like that exist, my guess is they have about as much credence as Coulter’s claims.

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Nothing you wrote alters Barron’s point. Read about the story from which ever source you trust.

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So you are claiming the texts asking for more relations were false or misleading??

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What point?

I don’t get it?

What are we supposed to take from Colter’s mischaracterization of the previous situation? What is the cautionary tale here? What is the relevance to this thread?

So she was asking for it? That explains everything.
:roll_eyes:

Again, please clarify. What are you saying?

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I don’t want to get political (not allowed) but as we try to teach our children what is acceptable or not in the future, what took place in Ohio last week and backed by our top and second level leader scares me for our college students of the future, who might come to think none of this is that big a deal.

And then do we see more of this?

We already see too much.

Another teen arrested for alleged rape at Wichita State University | Trusted News Source for Wichita & Kansas | kake.com

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Relying solely on Coulter’s account is a red herring. If you are genuinely interested try Google to answer your questions. You may be surprised.

How is this relevant?

NY ivy league college, accused of rape, found not guilty by school, local law enforcement not bringing charges, nasty text messages, original “narrative” not accurate, presumption of guilt, campus climate, the list goes one.

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Her texts shortly after the alleged incident are not typical for a rape vicitm.

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There are many differences between the Cornell and Columbia sexual assault allegations including:

  • Columbia’s internal investigation found Nungesser was “not responsible.” Nungesser received no reprimands from the university and continued his classes and degree.
  • Cornell’s internal investigation found Ingalls and Newell “were responsible for sexual assault” among other violations and subsequently expelled them from the university. Cornell also closed the fraternity.
    __
  • The Columbia DA did not pursue charges due to “lack of reasonable suspicion.”
  • The Cornell DA says he did not initially pursue charges due to NYS law definitions and having incomplete information. The DA has more recently reopened the investigation.
    __
  • The Columbia alleged claims have little public evidence beyond he said / she said.
  • The Cornell alleged claims have a variety of public evidence beyond he said / she said including a group chat screenshot and statements / texts from several different individuals confirming that certain violations took place.

Regarding the Columbia Facebook messages, they do not prove whether a sexual assault took place or not. It is certainly possible for someone to say that they were interested in sex prior in Facebook messages and begin as consensual sex, then say “no” during the encounter, particularly if it becomes violent. However, while this series of events is possible, it’s also possible that the events went as Nungesser claims, with no sexual assault occurring.

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Relying on Coulter’s account? @barrons linked in Coulter, not me, and Coulter’s obvious purpose is to smear and shame these young women by lying about and/or misrepresenting what happened, some of which I described above.

I left out the most salasious accusation because I hadn’t double checked its veracity. Given how many people have clicked on Coulter’s disgusting post we should probably address it. If nothing else, it provides an interesting look at how propagandists like Coulter twist these things to run down accusers . . .

Coulter indicated that “Mattress Girl” had asked the accused for anal sex. So, as @barron put above, it she was asking for it (“asking for more relations.”) This based on a message which included the phrase “f— me in the butt.” What Coulter leaves out is that this comment was made months before during the previous school year (freshman year) when the two were close friends but not yet had any physical relations.

She also leaves out that, reportedly, the context strongly suggests that “Mattress Girl” wasn’t asking for anal sex at all, but rather it was vulgar interjection following a complaint about having to get up early the next morning! A hyperbolic idiom expressing exasperation and dismay. Such as “F— my life!” Or “F— me sideways.” Or “F— a duck.” Or, more PG, “just shoot me!” Or, as it was put ridiculously in a Predator movie “F— me in the face with an aardvark!” There are hundred’s of examples of this form of interjection in literature, pop culture, and film. It is common, perhaps in more ways than one.

Apparently understanding this, the accused then jokingly responds as if it was an actual invitation. To make it clear that this is a joke he even included “jk”!) (eehm . . . maybe not? . . . jk . . . I miss your face tho."). She then laughs and plays along ("hahahah . . . you don’t miss my lopsided ass?) and then they go back to their conversation. No actual discussion of having anal sex. No actual invitation. Just a vulgar interjection turned into a joke. College kids do that.

There is so much so obviously wrong with Coulter trying to use this to smear this woman and twist this into consent, that I won’t bother. And never mind that even if in this guy’s mind that was an actual invitation, that in no way translates any form of consent for violent anal sex sometime the next school year! That he would offer this up in his defense says quite a lot about him, and nothing whatsoever about her.

As for its significance to this conversation . . . I guess is shows that even some of the enlightened parents on CC aren’t above smearing and shaming young women who dare come forward with their harrowing experiences.

What reaction is “typical” for a victim raped by people she trusts? And please provide sources.

Because I was under the impression that there was no “typical” reaction, so please set me straight.

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We live near the ocean and we often hear about people who are drunk and on drugs and wander into the ocean and drown. D was watching a lifeguard show that takes place on Bondi Beach in Australia and drunk people drowning or coming close to drowning in the ocean is a frequent occurrence on the show. People get drunk and just wander into a body of water or they think can just take a dip but don’t realize that you can’t swim drunk. The ocean is especially dangerous if you’re drunk due to riptides and waves and of course reefs.

Another danger with being drunk is dying of cold. Many years ago a former student of mine who went to college in New England or the Midwest (don’t remember, this was at the beginning of my teaching/school admin career) and he got drunk and wandered off and was found a few days later in the forest and he had died of from exposure. I was teaching his younger sister at the time. People who are very drunk don’t know where they’re going and they think the alcohol might be keeping them warm.

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Guest column by sorority alumna

“…..To begin with rush: Fraternities host open parties where men can come and go as they please, mingle, drink alcohol and smoke cigars. Simultaneously, women are led around like children, forced to visit every house, wait in line outside in the freezing January cold, adhere to strict dress codes, get yelled at by their rho gammas and then have brief, choreographed conversations with sorority members where they are strictly forbidden from discussing parties. Partying at fraternities is, unfortunately, one of the main reasons that women join sororities, but they are expected to act like that doesn’t exist until initiation.

After joining a sorority, pledges enter a dry period. During this time, new sorority members are expected to refrain from drinking completely. These women are policed beyond the walls of the sorority house, and again treated as children rather than adults. Simultaneously, new fraternity members immediately begin partying and drinking with their houses. Following this period is Wet Week, where a sorority-fraternity mixer is planned for every night of the week. New sorority members get to drink — finally! — and are dispatched to fraternity house after fraternity house. They are thrown into it with a full-speed bender.

From Wet Week until graduation, the bender continues. Every Thursday, Friday and Saturday night, fraternity pledges arrive at sorority houses to shuttle women to the fraternities. Because alcohol is strictly banned at sorority houses and men are only allowed in the downstairs common spaces; parties must take place exclusively at fraternity houses. This means that if sorority women want to party, they must go to a fraternity house where the men provide the drinks, where the men are familiar with the space and where the women are guests. Imagine what it would be like if a sorority woman who felt suddenly too drunk and needed to take a breather, could retreat to her own bedroom. Imagine if the women controlled what substances were passed around at the party. Imagine fraternity men showing up as guests, and the sorority women feeling the very real comfort and power of hosting. Imagine sorority women not feeling degraded by being packed into a car like animals and shuttled to the fraternities. Wouldn’t that be safer?
…..”

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I’m going to have great difficulty keeping my mouth shut next time someone I know starts to gush about all the “philanthropic work” their D’s sorority does or how much money they raised for Toys for Tots, or Make a Wish.

I’m sure it’s true. But regular women in college ALSO engage in “good works” without the rather odd power dynamic this op-ed describes.

Sometimes system change requires changing the system, not just pretending “it’s a few bad apples”. If this op-ed is accurate, the entire set up serves to make women passive participants (or victims).

Ugh. Thanks for posting.

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“My personal, but passionate, opinion, is that the reason that Greek Life reform continues to fail at Cornell, and the reason women continue to be victims of rape and sexual assault, is that the reforms focus on the fraternities while ignoring the sororities’ complicity.”

I call BS. The reason women are victims of sexual assault are because they are raped. Period. And to blame them for it is preposterous. Plenty of non sorority women are also raped at fraternity houses.

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I’m not sure it’s as black and white as that though. I agree that it is not just sororities and just laying blame at their door is wrong - but I have read elsewhere that (I assume some, not all) sororities are at least implicitly complicit in the way frats objectify women, and thereby do contribute to the kind of culture that results in sexual assault. This is dealt with in the Sanday book, for example.

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