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CC_Admin · June 10, 2006, 3:37am

alright guys, so here it is. I got off the waitlist at the last minute. So far I’ve committed to the University of California at Berkeley in EECS, but with the news of admission, I have to make decisions again (as if the month of april wasn’t stressful enough).

So here it goes. I live in Illinois. I went to a selective, competetive, small high school. I guess you can say the people there were sort of quirky. They were all pretty intelligent for the most part. Classes were tough, stressful at times, but I made it through alive with a good GPA (good enough for berkeley and caltech I guess).

So now i’m looking at two different paths. Both look great, but both are different. It’s like a hot summer day, i’m in the market, and i’m looking at a big juicy orange, or a ripe tasty kiwi. Haha, terrible analogy, but bear with me. Both can be satisfying, but in different ways. In the end I know I’ll be happy, but if I’m only allowed to take one, which one do I take. Now, the way I see it, it doesn’t matter which one I take, but it does matter. At the same time, time is running out, and my parents are staring at me. They don’t care which one I want, just as long as I want it, cause they want to know which one they’re going to need to pay for.

Let’s say the Orange is Berkeley. Big. Ripe. Juicy.

Let’s say the Kiwi is Caltech. Small. Ripe. Delicious.

The Kiwi costs 3.00 (expensive kiwi, no?)
The Orange costs 4.00 (expensive orange, no?)

Which one do I choose? I’m not having a hard time choosing cause I don’t want either, I’m having a hard time choosing cause they both sound so great.

In reality I would probably just pull out 7.00 and buy both, eating one after the other. But it’s not like I can to berkeley then to caltech for two undergraduate degrees.

In reality, Berkeley will be it’s 43k out of state tuition with pretty much no need based aid, and Caltech will be generous and give me need based aid. BIG difference.

So I have to choose one.

Caltech reminds me a lot of my high school in that it’s pretty small (okay, REALLY small), you’ll form close bonds with your peers, and it’s all in a pretty competetive atmosphere. You feel great because you’re in such intelligent company, but at what price? You find your school is lacking in athletics and women (and the girls find the male selection not so great.) I really really enjoyed my high school experience, but at times I thought it was a little too stressful. But deep down I know i’m up for the challenge. I always told myself in high school, “you know, i wouldn’t mind doing calculus all day, if only I had all day to do calculus”. But it does worry me, the academics at Caltech. I feel well trained, prepared, but in same way, seeing all the stats of everyone else who got in or even got waitlisted or rejected, makes me think i’ll be the very lowest in the class. Seriously, my SAT was 2040 the first time I took it, then it was 2020 (how does one do worse?). My ACT was 32, my Math IIC was 760, my Chem SAT II was 750, my Physics SAT II was 660. I will have no AP Credit except for Calculus AB (it’s a five, don’t worry) going into college. My GPA was 3.97 going into senior year, coming out, it’s still a 3.9 something. I didn’t even qualify for the AIME (let’s not talk about how I did on the AMC either, whew). I guess what I did have going for me is that I had some teachers who I grew close to, took a rigorous schedule, and took advantage of some summer opportunities. I am by no means a regular statistic. If I go to caltech, I will suddenly be immersed in a pool of 2200’s, 2300’s, 2400’s, 3.9’s, 4.0’s, 5.3’s, 10 AP 5’s, National Math and Science Contest winners, paper publishers, research doers, pretty much geniuses. Where will I fit? How will I fit? I guess my interest in science is genuine, but I only really love science in the way that I find it applicable to me and the world around me. Like the time I was dead asleep in physics class; suddenly my teacher started talking about the horsepower professional cyclists could generate and I popped up from my pool of drool on the desk (no joke) and started rattling off information about wattage and heart rate that lance armstrong had been tested for. It’s that kind of stuff that I live for. FACT: I would probably not go into science if were not for Spider-man (spiderman, does whatever a spider can, spins a web, any size, catches thieves… hahahaha). Back before I got into my high school, I used to take some pride in being “smart”. After I got to my high school and found so many smart people, I sort of “gave up” on academics. I told myself, it’s no longer a distinguishing factor to be smart. So I devoted my time to other things, and told myself I’d just learn about the things I really wanted to learn about, but not consider the status of myself amongst the others. So I went, and learned what I wanted to, and some things I didn’t, just really trying to get by in what I didn’t find so interesting, but really trying to accel in what I did. Luckily for me, I found a lot of things interesting, so I managed to get by in school. Somehow. But being tossed into such a tough environment as Caltech, would my approach to academics even hold up. Would learning to blow bubbles in my milk in kindergarten help me to survive first grade lunch? That’s what I want to know. It’ s not that I’m not eager to learn new things or dedicate myself to try to learn everything I’m presented as well as possible. Of course when I go to college I’ll try my hardest in every class at every subject. But my question now is, At Caltech, Will it be enough?

Kiwis can go wrong all the time. If your kiwi isn’t just ripe enough, you will throw it away in disgust. Too bad no one in my family knows how to choose kiwis.

Oranges are easier. Everyone eats oranges. It’s not hard to choose an orange. Even with your orange being more expensive than your kiwi, it might be worth the risk to pay more for satisfaction.

I wonder if anyone is still reading and hanging on to my analogy.

Berkeley. What can I say. One huge freaking school with plenty of asian kids (like myself.) Maybe I could master the language that was never quite as natural to me, and get by speaking only Mandarin for four years. I could get lost in the EECS crowd. It’s a big department, EECS, bigger than the Caltech undergrads? I Can look up teacher evaluations for all teachers online, enjoy san francisco, enjoy berkeley, take a much broader range of classes. Yeah, that sure could be nice. And I could meet a lot of people. And a LOT more girls. Berkeely is 54% female, no? so what am I trying to compare, 300 undergrad girls to like… 30 times that number. Forgive my statistics if they’re wrong. I’m sort of just rambling at this point. I got a really good impression of well roundedness from Berkeley. If I was finishing a college essay, I would say “round as an orange.” but i’m not, so i’m not saying it. I would almost welcome this huge change from the small school I’m used to though. I ain’t saying it’s gonna be easy at Berkeley, it’s going to be tough. But maybe I can always look at my roommate and say “at least my gpa is a point above his.”

In a sense I am asking myself that if I went back to 6th grade, would I still go to the school I chose to go to? The small, selective, but still public school? Or what would have happened if I had continued on to the huge public school that I was supposed to go to?

They’re both really beautiful places, really. Coming from the cornfields, who would I be to complain? Either way it’s like drinking iced lemonade when you’ve been drinking warm water for 17 years during the summer. It’s welcome.

Another thing. I’m young. I skipped a grade. I know Caltech gets that type. Juniors who leave a year early, or young kids, but all the times i’ve heard about them they’re the kind that’s gotten the 1600. Who knows. How will this affect me?

I’m not even sure if I’m asking for any answers here. I guess a lot of the decision I have to make myself.

Right now, I love both schools, even if I have doubts about going there. The question is, which will I love more and longer.

Last thing. How did I even get into Caltech? Maybe they’re just playing a joke!

Awesome!

korinfox · June 10, 2006, 4:56am

Well I go to Caltech, and I think the decision is obvious. You’ll get much much more bang for your buck here at Caltech. The attention you’ll get here and research possibilities will pretty much be endless.

The EE program here is pretty tough, namely the first/second year 5x series of classes, but after that I’ve heard it gets much easier. CS is laid back as long as you’re a CS major (i.e. good at programming).

Everyone is smart, you got in, so you’re smart. There really are no flukes as far as intelligence goes, not like some other colleges where a sub-standard student slips by because of legacy or something.

Being young really isn’t anything, I know a bunch of kids a year young (including myself) and well, a year isn’t anything.

Caltech! Really, you should go, since at worst Caltech would be the same price as Berkeley out of state.

CzarDerivative · June 10, 2006, 5:13am

You sound quirky enough to fit in at Caltech. ;-)

And yeah, if you were accepted… you’re probably smart enough, so you shouldn’t be worrying about that.

I had to make the same decision in April. Berkeley is much more well rounded than Caltech… nobody’s arguing with you there. It just depends on what you think you want. I’ve been in well rounded environments, and I’m not really that crazy about them. To me, people at Caltech are more fun to be around, and generally easier to relate with – the decision was easy. If you feel comfortable in that kind of environment, and are reasonably obsessed with certain aspects of math/science/engineering, then choose Caltech.

-Oren

DMRenrel · June 10, 2006, 9:28am

How you did in high school on paper disapears the second you ste foot in college. All that remains is whatever mindset and knowledge you can pull from it.

Me- Given the choice (though I’m more a physics or astronomy guy), I’d go Caltech. Purely working with your metaphor:

“Oranges are easier. Everyone eats oranges. It’s not hard to choose an orange. Even with your orange being more expensive than your kiwi, it might be worth the risk to pay more for satisfaction.”

I’d have to pick Caltech. The easy route that everyone takes will never make you stand out to grad schools, to jobs, to pretty ladies on Califorinia beaches (ok, so, Physics major at caltech might not be a pickup line)…

Honestly, I dont’t know much about the Berkely engineering program. You’ve certainly got more options for majors there- check on that, it could answer your quesiton quickly. Caltech is hands down worse for nuclear engineering (snickers…caltech doesn’t offer it…).

lizzardfire · June 10, 2006, 11:22am

You may not be the smart one at Caltech. I know that I won’t be… but that is a huge selling point to me. I, like many other caltechers, was on top of high school. I found it easy and unchallenging. I’m tired of being the “smart kid” and one of the things that excites me most is that so many people at Caltech are smarter than I am. I can’t wait to experience something I’ve never really had the opportunity to before–true genius. I can’t wait to, for the first time, need help on homework.

Do you want to feel dumb at times? Do you want to have to work your butt off to succeed? Do you want to find your limits?

If you answered yes to those questions, Caltech is your school.

jdhutchin · June 10, 2006, 11:27am

The best way to make your decision would be to base it on visits to the two campuses, but it’s kinda late for that. I visited both Caltech and Berkeley, and liked Caltech 100x more. Caltech is a completely different environment, and one I think is much better for people who are at the top of their game. Based on the forum you’ve posted in, you’ll get a lot of Caltech responses, obviously, but I think that’s because it is the better choice.

CzarDerivative · June 10, 2006, 11:43am

Ironically enough, I’m going to Venice beach to play with my new camera in about an hour, and I’ll definitely be wearing my MIT/Caltech prank t-shirt. :D

-Oren

flierdeke · June 10, 2006, 12:31pm

Disclaimer: I’m not a Caltech student yet.

You sound like you’re actually better off in terms of this attitude than people who never spent a significant amount of time around other bright students. Unless you actually lose interest in academics as opposed to status when that’s no longer a distinguishing factor.

My general impression is that Caltech will not make any guarantees about whether your best effort will be enough. (Ben’s post #14 at <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=172976[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=172976</a> says this far more eloquently.) Some schools will. Probably at Berkeley, you could choose your classes so that you would never fail anything. You could probably even, say, skip quantum mechanics and still graduate.

Again, to make an iffy judgment, you sound a bit like you could end up bitter. Caltech does produce some bitter students. You’re worried about feeling dumb, which is roughly guaranteed to happen. (That’s not a personal insult–if anyone has ever gone through Caltech without feeling dumb, feel free to correct me.) You’re worried about the lack of diversity in the student body compared to Berkeley. Those could both make you extremely (if temporarily) unhappy. They will probably make even people who thought these were good things when choosing a school unhappy sometimes. So normally I’d say–if you aren’t sure, you’d probably be happier at Berkeley. But you’ve obviously given it a lot of thought, and you seem to be having a very hard time giving up the idea of going to Caltech despite your hesitation. So I have no advice. Helpful, I know.

alleya · June 10, 2006, 12:44pm

Quick note: Caltech does NOT have a competitive atmosphere. Quite the opposite in fact. Hurting someone else so that you can get ahead is unheard of and bragging is looked down on. People who do well keep quiet about their grades to protect their friends’ feelings.

alleya · June 10, 2006, 12:55pm

One more thing…

300Runner, this has absolutely nothing to do with you beyond the fact that you’re the latest of many to have mentioned the ratio as an issue.

Yes, the ratio does effect the atmosphere here and the dating prospects. However, I often see people complaining about not having any girls to date that have never asked a girl out here, let alone would have done so at a college where they were a small fish in a big sea. This is not meant to be harsh, but some of the frosh guys I’ve talked to seem to think that just being at a school with more girls will automatically get them dates and they forget they have to first ask the girl out. People with high intelligence often have poorly developed social skills. Personally, I found that being surrounded by intelligent people removed a lot of the pressure and let me relax and develop social skills that I would not have gained elsewhere. Yes, the guys I meet here are not always as attractive or socially sophisticated as those I meet elsewhere. But, I never would have been comfortable around guys elsewhere if I didn’t first learn how to make friends with guys here. I suspect the same is true for the guys.

Moral of the story: be realistic about whether the ratio is going to have an effect on your dating life. Having more girls isn’t going to help unless you already have the social skills to take advantage of the situation.

jimbob1225 · June 10, 2006, 1:01pm

go to caltech dumass. one complaint about berk is that your classmates all are not necessarily smart. plus at caltech you’re getting $. GOOOO

gilly · June 10, 2006, 1:14pm

My dad teaches at Berkeley now, and has also taught at Caltech and I was making the same decision as you (except Caltech was more expensive) and he was definatly in favor of Caltech.

(I don’t really know if that helps!)

UndulyLlamarific · June 10, 2006, 1:14pm

If Caltech is really cheaper for you, it seems like an easy choice. Berkeley was much much cheaper for me but I still chose Caltech. Trust me, you aren’t the only one who’s feeling like they’re one of the stupidest people going in a lot of us do.

Also, from what I’ve heard, I don’t think you’re correct at all in your assessment of the atmosphere at Caltech as being “competitive.” If anything, that sounds more like Berkeley. Caltech seems to be a lot more about collaboration.

CC_Admin · June 10, 2006, 2:44pm

thanks guys.

but i dont think competition necessarily excludes collaboration or that collaboration excludes competition. It’s not like it’s one or the other. You can have a highly cooperative environment, but when everyone’s trying to excel, you’re also going to feel the pressure.

lizzardfire · June 10, 2006, 3:04pm

Although everyone is trying to excel, they are not trying to do so to anyone else’s standards, but their own. What I mean is, it seems like people at caltech do their best and don’t worry about the scores everyone else is getting. I don’t think there is a lot of interstudent competition. I think that is why most people say it is collaborative and not competitive.

alleya · June 10, 2006, 11:39pm

300Runner, yes competition can coexist with collaboration. However, that’s not the case here. Grades are considered incredibly private and are rarely ever discussed. Over 4 years, I’ve only known one other person’s GPA. You know an average GPA for the school, and the honors GPA, but not much else. By keeping grades private, competition is out of the question. You can’t compete against someone if you don’t know how they’re doing.

zoogies · June 10, 2006, 11:46pm

You know, this is really amusing, I used fruits in my “why caltech?” essay, although I didn’t get quite so specific. I think I only mentioned lemons, which, although they’re sour, are cool and refreshing, and of a wonderful color, yellow.

But anyway. I was also admitted from the Caltech waitlist (another coincidence) and my other choice was Cornell - which isn’t public, but it’s large, and I had spent the better part of the prior month getting adjusted to the fact that I was going there. It’s great, large, diverse community, wonderful dorms (although the best one is an all-girls dorm, unfortunately), and huge gorges, always a plus.

Another coincidence - I go (or went) to a really small high school; REALLY small, my graduating class was around 80. It wasn’t that competitive, and nor was it lacking in athletics and women, or really all that stressful, but it’s small, anyway. And I ended up deciding on Caltech because as much as it is lacking in gender diversity, I thought the small size offered much better guidance. I used to go to a larger high school; guidance was a huge, sprawling, systemized affair, with structured meetings and set classtime appointments and such. At my current high school I could just walk into the guidance counselor’s office any day, it was great. Seriously understaffed, but great - I was sure Caltech would take better care of me in that regard.

That said, I’m also pretty sure that I’m going to die sometime first term. Give it eight or nine weeks, tops. But after that, I won’t have to worry about getting sleep anymore, which should make the 11 remaining terms much easier. I’m sure you’re not alone in feeling a little worried about how you’ll fit into such a pool of people. I have a 2400SAT, but you know, it doesn’t really mean anything, at least not anymore.

So I take it you’re going to be EECS. In that case, you probably don’t have to worry about having it hard; Berkeley’s program is top-notch and rigorous as well. Like, whether I was going to go to Cornell or Caltech, I was going to have to work harder than I’ve ever imagined; you’re not going to Berkeley to major in gender studies, after all. Nothing against gender studies majors, but I’m assuming they get more free time and relief than engineers. If you go to Berkeley EECS to take it easy, well, you probably shouldn’t and won’t do so well. I disagree with the earlier poster who said Caltech would provide a much greater bang-for-the-buck; I don’t think so, not even just in terms of name value. I think the quality and reputation of both programs are similar, and you’ll have to evaluate your decision based on other things. That said, similar quality doesn’t mean both are suited for you, depending on your particular tastes in terms of advising, size, facilities, and so on.

Kiwis are, I admit, much harder to decide to eat. The very ESSENCE OF SOUR which it emits on its ingress to your mouth is often enough to frighten would-be devourers away. But once you go through with it, it’s not so bad. The aftertaste is particularly pleasant.

Oranges can be hard to swallow. Seeds. Gosh, they’re horrible. I actually prefer clementines, myself. Orange juice is good, and so are orange popsicles. I don’t know of kiwi popsicles, but if you ever get the chance, try some kiwi juice. It’s wonderful, you’ll be drinking it by the fire hose.

As for the demographics at Berkeley…yeah, as an Asian, I find the frightening number of asian kids there to be not so great. I mean, nothing against my own race, but what the heck? Turning around and seeing asian people, EVERYWHERE! It would be too much for me. Granted, there are plenty of asian people at Caltech as well. So this was, as far as paragraphs of advice go, not very useful at all. But proceeding on -

I ended up concluding that the virtue of a ‘broader range of classes’ was a little misleading. I mean, you look at Berkeley, or any other large institution of its prestige, and see this huge laundry list of top-notch programs in every field from medieval history to abnormal psychology…but if you’re going to end up in EECS, you really won’t have much room to take all those classes, wherever you go to school. Cornell has around 4000 courses, I believe; I’d be lucky to get in 8 humanities courses as an engineering major. Besides, the courses that you will get to take in the liberal arts won’t ever reach a high level, because you’re not in that major. You’ll find those same courses at Caltech (look at the H&SS course list; there’s more courses than you can take), where the differences will be there’s less politicization (or so I’ve heard) and the classes will be a whole lot smaller. Which I find to be better, at any rate.

At graduation, when I was being introduced as the salutatorian, the vice principal found it necessary to announce to everyone that the reason I was hesitant to go to Caltech was because only 30% of the undergraduate population was female. And it’s true, I really don’t have anything to say to this. But there are schools nearby - again, I’ve only heard about this. I don’t know the specifics of intrascholastic dating with the nearby schools - UCLA, Occidental, PCC, etc. I guess the only thing to say here is that the women may be few, but unless you operate on seriously outmoded ethics, there can only be one. Naturally, you won’t fail at this. I mean, you have to think that, at any rate.

Hey, guess what. I’m young too, I skipped two grades. Trust me, ‘they’re the kind that’s gotten the 1600’ is a huge generalization. I’m not well-versed in 42 different computer languages (actually, I’m not well-versed in any), all my attempts to hack the CIA have ended in failure (in case the FBI is watching, I jest;) and I once went to a concert performance without my instrument. Incidentally, another time, I went to a concert performance and left my stand there, so I don’t have a stand any longer; this still upsets me a little.

I guess the final word is still yours, you have to make a decision yourself. Make sure it’s one you won’t regret later.

If you’re wondering how you got into Caltech, I was wondering the same thing. In my case, the Caltech adcmte. went out and got wicked hammered, and that was how I got in. Probably something different for you though.

I remember one of my Caltech 2010 friends (Vintor) pulled me over to an AIM Caltech '10 chatroom. I don’t know if it’s still around, but if it is, you should go visit. Or you could just talk to lizzardfire. Heh.

// – holy crap, I wrote a lot Sorry. I might’ve gotten a little carried away there. It happens, particularly when I write about kiwis and lemons.

flierdeke · June 11, 2006, 12:07am

'Tis still around, called caltech10. Do visit!

tech_fan · June 11, 2006, 12:07am

and where are you tilts head

;-)

CzarDerivative · June 11, 2006, 12:12am

The chat is definitely still around. Drop in sometime. :)

-Oren

Edit: Beaten. Damnit.

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